4 ms·

There are no breakaway republics? The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were ha

There are no breakaway republics? The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying? If not, what exactly of my point do you take issue with? The claims on Russia geo strategical intent? The history of invasions into Russia through Ukraine in fairly recent times? That Crimea is not historically Russian? These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda. I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> There are no breakaway republics?. There are Russian backed terrorists that are temporarily occupying Ukrainian territory, these terrorists shot down a civilian airliner and killed hundreds. > The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? Theres no been no real referendums so we will never, but the partisan posters that keep appearing in Crimea would suggest that no the majority dont want to join Russia. > All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying? All the people on occupied Ukrainian territory may not be happy with the government they may also not be happy be conscripted by the FSB backed terrorist occupiers either to fight against their brothers. But it doesn't matter because not everyone needs to support a government for it to be legitimate. > These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda. None of these are facts. > I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading. The most rational view of this situation is to send the heaviest weapons possible to Ukraine, because the only rational way this ends is with a lot of dead Russian soldiers, and that needs to happen as soon as possible.
- mythrwy 4y ago
  The denial of reality has not been working very well so far for you. Neither has the craziness and hostility. At what point do you realize this? When you have no coastline and another 100K dead? Or will it take millions in big urban centers and widespread starvation?
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    The denial of reality? The reality is that Russia failed miserably at there noted first goal (regime change in Ukraine) suffered such a resounding loss that they withdrew there army from a axis of the war because they where being decimated. Keep in mind Kyiv is only 50km from the border with Russia, and Russia failed to take it. This was has less been about a denial of reality and really been about seeing just how much a paper tiger the Russian armed forces are, turns out they are worse then pretty much anyone expected. If Russia is doing so well why are there own propagandist and military complaining about how well Ukraine is striking there C&C and ammo depots?. Why has Russia made so little gains in the past two weeks?. Russia has already failed the only question is how badly there loses get before they leave. That’s the question, how many dead Russian soldiers, how many more ships from the Black Sea fleet have to sink, how many more helicopters and planes have to crash and how many more tanks need to cook off?. > Or will it take millions in big urban centers and widespread starvation? The intentional starvation of urban centres certainly sounds like genocide to me, and you really have to ask yourself what kind of capable military acts like this?. Russian threatens because it’s there only option, if they could they would of taken Ukraine already.
    - btilly 4y ago
      Correction. Kyiv is about 380 km from the Russian border. You're thinking of the Belarusian border. But Belarus and Russia are not (yet) one country.
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        That’s a fair point, but given they invaded via Belarus the original point stands (albeit corrected).
- btilly 4y ago
  One correction. The partisan posters suggest that there are people who are strongly against the Russian occupation. But actual polling says that there probably was strong majority support within Crimea for rejoining Russia. After 8 years of Russian propaganda, I would bet that the actual support is now higher. People become (at least temporarily) loyal to their abusers. It is not unlike Stockholm syndrome, and is often seen after, for instance, domestic violence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum... for more.
btilly 4y ago
You are not even be attempting to discuss this in good faith. You attribute ridiculous statements to me, such as that the breakaway republics do not exist, and there was universal support in Ukraine for Euromaiden, just so you have something to argue against. You throw complex topics such as the Crimea referendum out there. (For the record, the 97% support that Russia claimed is clearly false, but a majority support is probably true. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum for more.) And then you disingenuously ask that if I don't disagree with these, which do I disagree with? Meanwhile you continue to avoid calling Russian genocide by its proper name. You continue to claim that Russia had legal justification. You continue to deny the truth of Russian actions, and continue to blame Ukraine's situation on the West rather than on the country doing the invading. The truth is that it is a tragedy that Ukrainians are faced with the choice of fighting for their sovereignty or submitting to a genocidal Russian oppression. The record of Russian rule being terrible is supported by extensive history, current events, and ongoing Russian policy. By contrast the specter of Germany launching another invasion through Ukraine is rather ridiculous given the current culture of the German people and government. And Russia wore that excuse rather thin after using it to justify decades of tyranny over the Eastern Bloc during the cold war. I wish you would portray my position honestly, engage with the truth of Russian crimes, and start accepting facts. I also wish you wouldn't support a genocidal dictatorship.
- mythrwy 4y ago
  There is no sense in continuing to discuss it. I've made may point. I wish the best for the Ukrainians. But from what I see they might be in even worse trouble then I had thought. We might be as well. There is no genocide (yet anyway and hopefully ever). Please stop using hyperbole. It does your point no favors.
  - btilly 4y ago
    The fact that you refuse to engage with, for example, an official report from the US state department DOCUMENTING genocide, does not make calling Russias crimes genocide hyperbole. That said, I agree that further conversation is useless. At this point it should be obvious to anyone reading the thread that I try to source my facts, and report on what is true whether or not I like said facts. It should also be clear that you fail to engage with either facts or sources which do not agree with your world view. And your world view has been heavily shaped by Russian disinformation campaigns. My final word is that I condemn you for believing and then wanting to appease a genocidal dictator. While refusing to engage with documented evidence of the many crimes that he is lying about. Feel free to respond however you like. I'm done with this conversation.

_kbh_ 4y ago

> There are no breakaway republics?. There are Russian backed terrorists that are temporarily occupying Ukrainian territory, these terrorists shot down a civilian airliner and killed hundreds. > The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? Theres no been no real referendums so we will never, but the partisan posters that keep appearing in Crimea would suggest that no the majority dont want to join Russia. > All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying? All the people on occupied Ukrainian territory may not be happy with the government they may also not be happy be conscripted by the FSB backed terrorist occupiers either to fight against their brothers. But it doesn't matter because not everyone needs to support a government for it to be legitimate. > These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda. None of these are facts. > I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading. The most rational view of this situation is to send the heaviest weapons possible to Ukraine, because the only rational way this ends is with a lot of dead Russian soldiers, and that needs to happen as soon as possible.

mythrwy 4y ago
The denial of reality has not been working very well so far for you. Neither has the craziness and hostility. At what point do you realize this? When you have no coastline and another 100K dead? Or will it take millions in big urban centers and widespread starvation?
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  The denial of reality? The reality is that Russia failed miserably at there noted first goal (regime change in Ukraine) suffered such a resounding loss that they withdrew there army from a axis of the war because they where being decimated. Keep in mind Kyiv is only 50km from the border with Russia, and Russia failed to take it. This was has less been about a denial of reality and really been about seeing just how much a paper tiger the Russian armed forces are, turns out they are worse then pretty much anyone expected. If Russia is doing so well why are there own propagandist and military complaining about how well Ukraine is striking there C&C and ammo depots?. Why has Russia made so little gains in the past two weeks?. Russia has already failed the only question is how badly there loses get before they leave. That’s the question, how many dead Russian soldiers, how many more ships from the Black Sea fleet have to sink, how many more helicopters and planes have to crash and how many more tanks need to cook off?. > Or will it take millions in big urban centers and widespread starvation? The intentional starvation of urban centres certainly sounds like genocide to me, and you really have to ask yourself what kind of capable military acts like this?. Russian threatens because it’s there only option, if they could they would of taken Ukraine already.
  - btilly 4y ago
    Correction. Kyiv is about 380 km from the Russian border. You're thinking of the Belarusian border. But Belarus and Russia are not (yet) one country.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      That’s a fair point, but given they invaded via Belarus the original point stands (albeit corrected).
btilly 4y ago
One correction. The partisan posters suggest that there are people who are strongly against the Russian occupation. But actual polling says that there probably was strong majority support within Crimea for rejoining Russia. After 8 years of Russian propaganda, I would bet that the actual support is now higher. People become (at least temporarily) loyal to their abusers. It is not unlike Stockholm syndrome, and is often seen after, for instance, domestic violence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum... for more.

btilly 4y ago

You are not even be attempting to discuss this in good faith. You attribute ridiculous statements to me, such as that the breakaway republics do not exist, and there was universal support in Ukraine for Euromaiden, just so you have something to argue against. You throw complex topics such as the Crimea referendum out there. (For the record, the 97% support that Russia claimed is clearly false, but a majority support is probably true. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum for more.) And then you disingenuously ask that if I don't disagree with these, which do I disagree with? Meanwhile you continue to avoid calling Russian genocide by its proper name. You continue to claim that Russia had legal justification. You continue to deny the truth of Russian actions, and continue to blame Ukraine's situation on the West rather than on the country doing the invading. The truth is that it is a tragedy that Ukrainians are faced with the choice of fighting for their sovereignty or submitting to a genocidal Russian oppression. The record of Russian rule being terrible is supported by extensive history, current events, and ongoing Russian policy. By contrast the specter of Germany launching another invasion through Ukraine is rather ridiculous given the current culture of the German people and government. And Russia wore that excuse rather thin after using it to justify decades of tyranny over the Eastern Bloc during the cold war. I wish you would portray my position honestly, engage with the truth of Russian crimes, and start accepting facts. I also wish you wouldn't support a genocidal dictatorship.

mythrwy 4y ago
There is no sense in continuing to discuss it. I've made may point. I wish the best for the Ukrainians. But from what I see they might be in even worse trouble then I had thought. We might be as well. There is no genocide (yet anyway and hopefully ever). Please stop using hyperbole. It does your point no favors.
- btilly 4y ago
  The fact that you refuse to engage with, for example, an official report from the US state department DOCUMENTING genocide, does not make calling Russias crimes genocide hyperbole. That said, I agree that further conversation is useless. At this point it should be obvious to anyone reading the thread that I try to source my facts, and report on what is true whether or not I like said facts. It should also be clear that you fail to engage with either facts or sources which do not agree with your world view. And your world view has been heavily shaped by Russian disinformation campaigns. My final word is that I condemn you for believing and then wanting to appease a genocidal dictator. While refusing to engage with documented evidence of the many crimes that he is lying about. Feel free to respond however you like. I'm done with this conversation.