4 ms·

Yeah, this kind of study is for me quite at the pinnacle of the western problem with science and medicine where mental health and subtle social well-being is ju

Yeah, this kind of study is for me quite at the pinnacle of the western problem with science and medicine where mental health and subtle social well-being is just pushed under the rug. Do we get the same publicity towards antibiotics, which are also like not without their big drawbacks? Or any kind of "science" stamped drugs and treatment really. Humans have been consuming what we call bad bad drugs now since i believe earlier than writing, even other animals are doing it. Maybe you know, practice and evolution, has determined it had positive effects. And perhaps (wow big idea) over-consumption of alcohol is a symptom and not an isolated problem. Oh yeah, this was financed by the B&M Gates foundation, explains some stuff about the pov. I'm not doubting the "internal" quality of this research, this is probably top notch statistics and data quality, but the philosophical ground and world view behind the institutions that produced it is so heavy at the same time.

lbrito 4y ago
I agree that this kind of article can be myopic (or used for myopic conclusions), but for the life of me I can't understand the hate Bill Gates and his foundation gets.
- lapinot 4y ago
  Well because it's the money and globalization talking. In the middle of all the conspiracy shit you find online, there is also a ton of subtle and well-documented journalistic work explaining how sure they've helped poor kids in africa (who's against that?), but at the same time they're really bad at making the people they help self-sufficient and independent from global powers (which are the reason for their problems in the first place). They are giving stuff, but they are never really giving away the real thing. Why would they actually? They were cynical and capitalistic enough to actually make a shitton of money by exploiting people in the first place for a big part of their career (Bill Gates). By now we understand pretty much how they think about society and about what's good and bad. They are still somehow advancing the agenda of globalization. If you don't understand this, you ought to read about leftist critics of western humanitarian orgs. edit: see eg https://mondediplo.com/2022/07/11africa https://mondediplo.com/2022/07/11africa (sorry it's paywalled i'm looking into capturing it somewhere)
  - darawk 4y ago
    What is the "real thing" and how would one give it away?
    - lapinot 4y ago
      The real thing is materialistic independence and you give it away by educating skilled workers giving away IP and financing locally operated factories and other infrastructures. But global power have institutional safeguards against this because then they'll push themselves into a bad corner negotiating for resources they need themselves.
      - lbrito 4y ago
        I don't think its that simple. Not even close. Yes, IP protectionism is a problem, and breaking IP sometimes is extremely beneficial (e.g. generic drugs). But that doesn't account for the underdevelopment of most countries. There are many factors involved -- geographical, historical, social, political and so on. Its a long discussion that is ill fitted to a comment box, but suffice to say B&M Gates isn't _the_ reason underdeveloped countries are that way.
      - mordae 4y ago
        This. US - for example - might solve most of it's expensive drugs problem by simply licensing all relevant IP to India for a guarantee that they would be able to buy the drugs with up to 20% profit for the Indian seller after shipping, close an international deal, establish arbitrage and watch drug prices fall to <10% over a decade while Indians build up. If they established a mutual research fund (possibly with EU and British ex-colonies), they would exceed the current rate of research at 70% of current funding (if the research is kept in the west, basically guaranteed saving - 30% feeds profits and marketing), but if they were to exploit lower Indian wages... But this will never happen, because US is literally a business-interest device nowadays.
        lapinot 4y ago
        Yeah, i agree, but still, i believe we should even aim for higher standards than what you propose: actually licensing current relevant IP is not enough. At least in the sense that we actually have to develop IP that is small-scale operable, easily shareable, etc. Current techniques are mainly geared toward large scale, investment heavy and resource exploitative applications. It's a start to at least be open about these techniques and share them, but like the article i shared above explained, if you're sharing monoculture technology, you're actually not giving away resilience and robustness. Tons of our current technology has to be reevaluated because it optimized the wrong things.
yomkippur 4y ago
- decremental 4y ago
  I don't know what alternate universe you're living in where America is puritan. America is the most degenerate country on earth.
  - zwirbl 4y ago
    Look closer and you'll see that the US is both at the same time. That's just one of the societal faultlines that's getting stressed with increasing media polarization
  - dang 4y ago
    Can you please stop posting unsubstantive/and or flamebait comments to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- mercer 4y ago
  There are plenty of studies in the West that aren't too positive about eating meat in general (in the quantities that are common). I also don't recall hearing much about sex being bad from 'Western science'...

lbrito 4y ago

I agree that this kind of article can be myopic (or used for myopic conclusions), but for the life of me I can't understand the hate Bill Gates and his foundation gets.

lapinot 4y ago
Well because it's the money and globalization talking. In the middle of all the conspiracy shit you find online, there is also a ton of subtle and well-documented journalistic work explaining how sure they've helped poor kids in africa (who's against that?), but at the same time they're really bad at making the people they help self-sufficient and independent from global powers (which are the reason for their problems in the first place). They are giving stuff, but they are never really giving away the real thing. Why would they actually? They were cynical and capitalistic enough to actually make a shitton of money by exploiting people in the first place for a big part of their career (Bill Gates). By now we understand pretty much how they think about society and about what's good and bad. They are still somehow advancing the agenda of globalization. If you don't understand this, you ought to read about leftist critics of western humanitarian orgs. edit: see eg https://mondediplo.com/2022/07/11africa https://mondediplo.com/2022/07/11africa (sorry it's paywalled i'm looking into capturing it somewhere)
- darawk 4y ago
  What is the "real thing" and how would one give it away?
  - lapinot 4y ago
    The real thing is materialistic independence and you give it away by educating skilled workers giving away IP and financing locally operated factories and other infrastructures. But global power have institutional safeguards against this because then they'll push themselves into a bad corner negotiating for resources they need themselves.
    - lbrito 4y ago
      I don't think its that simple. Not even close. Yes, IP protectionism is a problem, and breaking IP sometimes is extremely beneficial (e.g. generic drugs). But that doesn't account for the underdevelopment of most countries. There are many factors involved -- geographical, historical, social, political and so on. Its a long discussion that is ill fitted to a comment box, but suffice to say B&M Gates isn't _the_ reason underdeveloped countries are that way.
    - mordae 4y ago
      This. US - for example - might solve most of it's expensive drugs problem by simply licensing all relevant IP to India for a guarantee that they would be able to buy the drugs with up to 20% profit for the Indian seller after shipping, close an international deal, establish arbitrage and watch drug prices fall to <10% over a decade while Indians build up. If they established a mutual research fund (possibly with EU and British ex-colonies), they would exceed the current rate of research at 70% of current funding (if the research is kept in the west, basically guaranteed saving - 30% feeds profits and marketing), but if they were to exploit lower Indian wages... But this will never happen, because US is literally a business-interest device nowadays.
      - lapinot 4y ago
        Yeah, i agree, but still, i believe we should even aim for higher standards than what you propose: actually licensing current relevant IP is not enough. At least in the sense that we actually have to develop IP that is small-scale operable, easily shareable, etc. Current techniques are mainly geared toward large scale, investment heavy and resource exploitative applications. It's a start to at least be open about these techniques and share them, but like the article i shared above explained, if you're sharing monoculture technology, you're actually not giving away resilience and robustness. Tons of our current technology has to be reevaluated because it optimized the wrong things.

yomkippur 4y ago

decremental 4y ago
I don't know what alternate universe you're living in where America is puritan. America is the most degenerate country on earth.
- zwirbl 4y ago
  Look closer and you'll see that the US is both at the same time. That's just one of the societal faultlines that's getting stressed with increasing media polarization
- dang 4y ago
  Can you please stop posting unsubstantive/and or flamebait comments to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
mercer 4y ago
There are plenty of studies in the West that aren't too positive about eating meat in general (in the quantities that are common). I also don't recall hearing much about sex being bad from 'Western science'...