5 ms·

So starnix is a tool being worked on at Google (in Rust, [1]) to implement Linux's syscall layer and is validated against test cases [2] written for gVisor, als

by uluyol 4y ago

So starnix is a tool being worked on at Google (in Rust, [1]) to implement Linux's syscall layer and is validated against test cases [2] written for gVisor, also a program that implements Linux's syscalls, but one that is instead written in Go [3]. I see NIH is growing even stronger at Google. Why not build on gVisor, rather than re-implement everything from scratch? [1] https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/main/src/proc/bin/starnix/ https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/main/s... [2] https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/main/src/proc/bin/starnix/#updating-starnix-when-running-prebuilt-tests https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/main/s... [3] https://gvisor.dev/ https://gvisor.dev/

codemac 4y ago
"implementing linux syscalls" ==> a million tools. I'm not sure it's strong logic to re-use something else because it implements linux syscalls, the hard part is what it does after it receives the syscall.
advisedwang 4y ago
gvisor is a Google project, this isn't NIH. gVisor provides a linux syscall interface to the guest, but ultimately calls a linux syscalls when it needs to invoke something in the host. That obviously doesn't work for a linux-on-fuschia compat layer. I guess you could re-use the guest side, but if gVisor wasn't written for pluggable backends it's probably more work to do that refactor than just build a separate tool.
- bongobingo1 4y ago
  From the outside looking in, it's seemed that Not Invented by this Team is just as likely a factor as NIH at google.
- iangudger 4y ago
  > That obviously doesn't work for a linux-on-fuschia compat layer. This isn’t actually true. gVisor contains full implementations of Linux syscalls and only relies on host syscalls being the same for some interoperability features between sandboxed and host applications. It would be completely possible to port gVisor to a non-Linux operating system.
  - uluyol 4y ago
    Right, it would be silly to intercept the syscalls and just pass them on as is to the host kernel. If you just want to validate/filter things for security reasons, there are existing Linux APIs for that.
raggi 4y ago
Long story short: "gVisor uses host-native abstractions, such as threads and memory mappings, to co-operate with the host and enable the same resource model as native containers." When the host isn't Linux...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
wiseowise 4y ago
For starters, gVisor is written in Go, which by design won’t have performance of C++/Rust.
- stickupkid 4y ago
  Citation required on this one... gVisor is used in a lot of places[1] that require more performance than a clock. I'm not saying you can't achieve more performance with C++/rust, what I'm saying is that this probably isn't the primary concern. 1. https://cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine/docs/concepts/sandbox-pods https://cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine/docs/concepts/san...
  - jhgg 4y ago
    https://www.usenix.org/system/files/hotcloud19-paper-young.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/hotcloud19-paper-young.p...
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/ https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/ https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/#network https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/#netw... Network performance in gvisor is awful and, by gvisor's own documentation, this is a matter of "implementation costs" ie: it is how gvisor is written, not gvisor's fundamental constructs, that makes it slow. The rest of the benchmarks are notable as well, there are a few other places where the implementation is called out as being a problem.
    - saurik 4y ago
      So maybe they should team up and work on replacing gVisor with something that shares as much code as possible with this new thing, which one would hope would be architected in a way to be able to help replace gVisor?
      - staticassertion 4y ago
staticassertion 4y ago
gvisor performance is terrible and rewriting it in Rust gives me hope that I can finally use it
- surajrmal 4y ago
  Note that starnix is not a rewrite of gvisor and in particular will not be portable to non fuchsia systems.
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    Bummer
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ksec 4y ago
This isn't NIH. There are links between Silicon Valley, Google, Rust and their ideology.
iangudger 4y ago
I believe this is entirely motivated by this policy: https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/policy/programming_languages https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/policy...

by uluyol 4y ago

codemac 4y ago

"implementing linux syscalls" ==> a million tools. I'm not sure it's strong logic to re-use something else because it implements linux syscalls, the hard part is what it does after it receives the syscall.

advisedwang 4y ago

gvisor is a Google project, this isn't NIH. gVisor provides a linux syscall interface to the guest, but ultimately calls a linux syscalls when it needs to invoke something in the host. That obviously doesn't work for a linux-on-fuschia compat layer. I guess you could re-use the guest side, but if gVisor wasn't written for pluggable backends it's probably more work to do that refactor than just build a separate tool.

bongobingo1 4y ago
From the outside looking in, it's seemed that Not Invented by this Team is just as likely a factor as NIH at google.
iangudger 4y ago
> That obviously doesn't work for a linux-on-fuschia compat layer. This isn’t actually true. gVisor contains full implementations of Linux syscalls and only relies on host syscalls being the same for some interoperability features between sandboxed and host applications. It would be completely possible to port gVisor to a non-Linux operating system.
- uluyol 4y ago
  Right, it would be silly to intercept the syscalls and just pass them on as is to the host kernel. If you just want to validate/filter things for security reasons, there are existing Linux APIs for that.

raggi 4y ago

Long story short: "gVisor uses host-native abstractions, such as threads and memory mappings, to co-operate with the host and enable the same resource model as native containers." When the host isn't Linux...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

wiseowise 4y ago

For starters, gVisor is written in Go, which by design won’t have performance of C++/Rust.

stickupkid 4y ago
Citation required on this one... gVisor is used in a lot of places[1] that require more performance than a clock. I'm not saying you can't achieve more performance with C++/rust, what I'm saying is that this probably isn't the primary concern. 1. https://cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine/docs/concepts/sandbox-pods https://cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine/docs/concepts/san...
- jhgg 4y ago
  https://www.usenix.org/system/files/hotcloud19-paper-young.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/hotcloud19-paper-young.p...
- staticassertion 4y ago
  https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/ https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/ https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/#network https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/performance/#netw... Network performance in gvisor is awful and, by gvisor's own documentation, this is a matter of "implementation costs" ie: it is how gvisor is written, not gvisor's fundamental constructs, that makes it slow. The rest of the benchmarks are notable as well, there are a few other places where the implementation is called out as being a problem.
  - saurik 4y ago
    So maybe they should team up and work on replacing gVisor with something that shares as much code as possible with this new thing, which one would hope would be architected in a way to be able to help replace gVisor?
    - staticassertion 4y ago

staticassertion 4y ago

gvisor performance is terrible and rewriting it in Rust gives me hope that I can finally use it

surajrmal 4y ago
Note that starnix is not a rewrite of gvisor and in particular will not be portable to non fuchsia systems.
- staticassertion 4y ago
  Bummer

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ksec 4y ago

This isn't NIH. There are links between Silicon Valley, Google, Rust and their ideology.

iangudger 4y ago

I believe this is entirely motivated by this policy: https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/policy/programming_languages https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/policy...