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I have to agree with the argument that the prior should be that breastfeeding is beneficial and we would need massive and strong evidence to the contrary to cha

I have to agree with the argument that the prior should be that breastfeeding is beneficial and we would need massive and strong evidence to the contrary to change that position. It is an expensive process so it must have an evolutionary advantage. The analysis presented here seems convincing in the sense that we don’t have good evidence that breastfeeding increases IQ. But from what I remember there is good evidence that it improves the baby’s immune system among many other things. So bottom line is in the absence of massive amounts of strong evidence against breastfeeding, by default you should favour it. And if in the end the IQ effect isn’t real at least you improved your baby’s health (and hence survival chances). If you have the option to breastfeed, go for it. And as the article stated, if for whatever reason you cannot or will not you probably don’t need to feel too bad about it because the effects while positive are at the margin to the best of our current knowledge and formula is getting better every decade.

rayiner 4y ago
The analysis is actually quite different. Bottle feeding has massive advantages for division of labor among parents. I did all the night feedings for my first two kids so my wife could get some much needed sleep. She didn’t have to pump which is often so much trouble it’s not worth it. Moreover, they now associate me with being the nighttime parent, so when they’re sick or having trouble sleeping I’m the one they come to, not mom. Losing that flexibility would be worthwhile only if there was strong evidence that breastfeeding had advantages that can’t be replicated with formula. On that front it should be noted that the vast majority of GenX and older millennials were formula fed, as breastfeeding rates plummeted in the 1970s and 1980s. If there was a massive impact from that it would have been apparent.
- namecheapTA 4y ago
  It just feels weird to run this random experiment on my current child. Is evolution/biology wrong, and this processed stuff from the store better?? You'd have to have shocking amounts of studies to convince me it's better to have a baby eat that fake stuff than a mother's breast milk. And finally, I think it's incredibly selfish to argue about equitably splitting feeding times, at the likely expense of your child's health and growth. Young adults and men seem to be less healthy than ever. Plummeting testosterone, crazy rates of allergies, increased suicide rates, high depression.... But your right, if feeding them processed junk was bad, we'd see signs of it by now.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Young adults being less healthy than ever would argue against breastfeeding, which was at its nadir 2 generations earlier, and has been on the rise ever since.
  - peter422 4y ago
    The rates of breastfeeding in the U.S. have gone way way up over the past 30-40 years so I don’t think your theory fits the data.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I mean do you vaccinate your kids? I do—I don’t see that as an indictment on evolution. Young adults and men are less healthy than ever because we play on our computers instead of tilling soil and fighting in wars.
    - gerikson 4y ago
      Fighting in wars is good for your health? That's news to me.
- CrHn3 4y ago
  Breastfeeding seems to have epigenetic[1] and microbiome[2] advantages that are unique. It is associated with less GI infections, ear infections, asthma, lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol and risk of type 2 diabetes. 1. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261881391_Epigenetic_Effects_of_Human_Breast_Milk https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261881391_Epigeneti... 2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1931312820303504?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193131282...
- aljungberg 4y ago
  Yes evidently many children grow up fine on formula. So given that the effect of breastfeeding is capped, it’s reasonable to choose to optimise for other factors such as practicality, father-child bonding time and so on. As a counterpoint I’ll say that to the extent that the transfer of antibodies prevents or reduces infant illness, that is a win in the dimensions you describe on its own. A sick infant is both wildly impractical and hard to bond with. For example, in this interventional cohort study with breastfeeding promotion [1], ”the percent of children having pneumonia and gastroenteritis declined 32.2% and 14.6%, respectively, after the intervention.” [1] https://www.nec.navajo-nsn.gov/Portals/0/NN%20Research/Biological%20Factors/1998_%20Increasing%20Breastfeeding%20Rates%20to%20Reduce%20Infant%20Illness%20at%20the%20Community%20Level.pdf https://www.nec.navajo-nsn.gov/Portals/0/NN%20Research/Biolo...
  - rastignack 4y ago
    > Yes evidently many children grow up fine on formula. So given that the effect of breastfeeding is capped, it’s reasonable to choose to optimise for other factors such as practicality, father-child bonding time and so on. Does breastfeeding negatively impact father-child bond ? I find it highly unlikely. We do know for a fact that it’s better for health.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Does breastfeeding negatively impact father-child bond Exclusive breastfeeding (not exclusively feeding breastmilk, but exclusively breastfeeding) would to a certain extent, yes.
      - rastignack 4y ago
        Do you have behavioral studies to back this up ? My breastfed girl is daddy’s daughter.
        buran77 4y ago
        Exclusive breastfeeding means the mother's presence is essential, she has to be available most of the time as the primary care giver. Due to the way modern societies and nuclear families work, it's reasonable to assume that it's unlikely both partners would take long term leave to be with the infant, or that the father could be there anywhere near the same amount of time as the mother. So the infant would have far more time to bond with the mother than with the father. Whether this time alone is enough to guarantee a stronger bond is probably worth a separate discussion.
- bergenty 4y ago
  - rastignack 4y ago
    Breastfed children tend to have less stomachaches. When your baby cries because he cannot digest the formula, you arguably lose a big part of the benefits. Also breastfeeding is much more convenient when traveling. I think using formula was heavily promoted as a way to establish equality, and many people turned a blind eye on the drawbacks for the sake of progress. It’s a good thing that we are now prioritizing babies’ health.
    - tomerv 4y ago
      > Breastfed children tend to have less stomachaches. Maybe on average, but specific cases can vary wildly. Some foods that the breastfeeding mother consumes can cause issues. Milk, soy, and caffeine are known troublemakers - but good luck finding out which one is the source of stomach issues for your baby!
      - rastignack 4y ago
        It’s not that hard. Breastfeeding mother should no drink more than a cup of coffee per day. Regarding milk, avoiding it for a few days and checking for improvements is enough to see if it’s the culprit.
    - bergenty 4y ago
      I think we’re both on the same page. I’m all for breastfeeding and it’s what we’re currently doing and plan on continuing for atleast two years (along with other food of course).
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      I worried about things like this when I found out that we would have to formula feed our baby. But then I dug into the literature and found that the effect in most cases, while statistically significant, were very minor. Usually just a few percentage points different. And that's not to be interpreted as "kids who were formula fed were 2% sicker or scored 1% lower on tests". It's more like, out of the group of kids we studied, some formula fed kids scored higher and others scored lower. But it averaged out to a few points lower. There are so many other, much more important factors in raising a healthy kid. The breastfeeding vs formula is hardly worth the brainpower.
- petra 4y ago
  "Generation X and millennials are in worse health than their parents and grandparents were at their age. That's the conclusion of a new study that looked at markers of physical and mental health across the generations."[1] Of course, there could be many reasons for that. [1]https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210325/gen-x-millennials-in-worse-health-than-prior-generations https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210325/gen-x-mill...
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Again, that'd be an argument against breastfeeding, given that millenials were born at a peak time for breastfeeding. Really, though, it's probably got nothing to do with breastfeeding.
- blub 4y ago
  The father can do everything except breastfeeding, so there’s no reason (except illness) to divide labour on exactly the thing that evolution built the mother to do.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    Mothers probably don't need sleep, right?
    - CrHn3 4y ago
      Breastfeeding and sleep aren’t mutually exclusive.
      - jjeaff 4y ago
        They definitely are for some mothers. It is very difficult for many people to wake multiple times during the night and still get a good night's sleep.
    - dham 4y ago
      I mean I'm sure it's tough but it's not forever. Also co-sleeping helps. Never understood why people get up to feed babies.
    - blub 4y ago
      There are cots which attach to the parent’s bed and special blouses which allow for easy breastfeeding without undressing. The whole process is as simple as dragging the baby over, taking one breast out and bringing them near to it. The baby will take care of the rest. Mothers do get sleep, including during the day together with the baby. There are solutions out there for many frequent or rare problems. A good midwife and experienced mothers in the family / circle of friends are priceless.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Who gives a shit how evolution "built the mother"? It also built us to walk the plains and jog slowly after ruminants for hours on end to feed our tribes. In 2022, what the mother probably needs to do is get up in the morning reasonably refreshed and get in to her office.
kqr 4y ago
The way you phrase this makes it sound like your experiences (direct or indirect) with breastfeeding have been easy. You should know that it can be very difficult for a lot of mothers, in any number of ways. Having such a strong prior on preferring it has made many people's lives much harder than necessary.
- colordrops 4y ago
  I didn't read that in the comment at all.
- aljungberg 4y ago
  On the contrary, it was not easy at all but that’s a story for another day. My argument is merely that our opening position, until proven otherwise, should be that the child benefits. (It can, unfortunately, simultaneously be hard for the mother and beneficial for the child. Many aspects of parenting are.) And again I do think it’s important to note that huge numbers of children grow up well on formula. So if breastfeeding doesn’t work out for whatever reason there’s no reason to lose sleep over it. We can suspect it is beneficial and yet make a rational choice to forego it based on other factors.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that too many sacrifices by the mother in the name of breastfeeding can also be detrimental to the child. There is a good reason they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on before helping your child in the case of a depressurizing plane.
    - blub 4y ago
      If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work, ok, use formula. But if those sacrifices are things like being tired, sore breasts, etc there are normal and there are solutions available.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
> improves the baby’s immune system I think it just protects them while they are fed, does not offer long term protection. Anecdotally ours started to get way more sick in daycare after we stopped breastfeeding, but it also coincided with autumn season.
aaron695 4y ago
emsy 4y ago
>It is an expensive process so it must have an evolutionary advantage. >But from what I remember there is good evidence that it improves the baby’s immune system among many other things. >So bottom line is in the absence of massive amounts of strong evidence against breastfeeding, by default you should favour it. These are all bad arguments.
- Knufen 4y ago
  Perhaps instead of saying "this is bad", you should expand.
renewiltord 4y ago
It's quite well known that Australopithecus were outcompeted because they used to bottle feed.
bigbillheck 4y ago
> It is an expensive process so it must have an evolutionary advantage It does, it means that newborns don't have to be born developed enough to get their own food.
lultimouomo 4y ago
> It is an expensive process Even more so it's developing a formula milk industry; it's got to be a huge advantage.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rayiner 4y ago

The analysis is actually quite different. Bottle feeding has massive advantages for division of labor among parents. I did all the night feedings for my first two kids so my wife could get some much needed sleep. She didn’t have to pump which is often so much trouble it’s not worth it. Moreover, they now associate me with being the nighttime parent, so when they’re sick or having trouble sleeping I’m the one they come to, not mom. Losing that flexibility would be worthwhile only if there was strong evidence that breastfeeding had advantages that can’t be replicated with formula. On that front it should be noted that the vast majority of GenX and older millennials were formula fed, as breastfeeding rates plummeted in the 1970s and 1980s. If there was a massive impact from that it would have been apparent.

namecheapTA 4y ago
It just feels weird to run this random experiment on my current child. Is evolution/biology wrong, and this processed stuff from the store better?? You'd have to have shocking amounts of studies to convince me it's better to have a baby eat that fake stuff than a mother's breast milk. And finally, I think it's incredibly selfish to argue about equitably splitting feeding times, at the likely expense of your child's health and growth. Young adults and men seem to be less healthy than ever. Plummeting testosterone, crazy rates of allergies, increased suicide rates, high depression.... But your right, if feeding them processed junk was bad, we'd see signs of it by now.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Young adults being less healthy than ever would argue against breastfeeding, which was at its nadir 2 generations earlier, and has been on the rise ever since.
- peter422 4y ago
  The rates of breastfeeding in the U.S. have gone way way up over the past 30-40 years so I don’t think your theory fits the data.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I mean do you vaccinate your kids? I do—I don’t see that as an indictment on evolution. Young adults and men are less healthy than ever because we play on our computers instead of tilling soil and fighting in wars.
  - gerikson 4y ago
    Fighting in wars is good for your health? That's news to me.
CrHn3 4y ago
Breastfeeding seems to have epigenetic[1] and microbiome[2] advantages that are unique. It is associated with less GI infections, ear infections, asthma, lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol and risk of type 2 diabetes. 1. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261881391_Epigenetic_Effects_of_Human_Breast_Milk https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261881391_Epigeneti... 2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1931312820303504?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193131282...
aljungberg 4y ago
Yes evidently many children grow up fine on formula. So given that the effect of breastfeeding is capped, it’s reasonable to choose to optimise for other factors such as practicality, father-child bonding time and so on. As a counterpoint I’ll say that to the extent that the transfer of antibodies prevents or reduces infant illness, that is a win in the dimensions you describe on its own. A sick infant is both wildly impractical and hard to bond with. For example, in this interventional cohort study with breastfeeding promotion [1], ”the percent of children having pneumonia and gastroenteritis declined 32.2% and 14.6%, respectively, after the intervention.” [1] https://www.nec.navajo-nsn.gov/Portals/0/NN%20Research/Biological%20Factors/1998_%20Increasing%20Breastfeeding%20Rates%20to%20Reduce%20Infant%20Illness%20at%20the%20Community%20Level.pdf https://www.nec.navajo-nsn.gov/Portals/0/NN%20Research/Biolo...
- rastignack 4y ago
  > Yes evidently many children grow up fine on formula. So given that the effect of breastfeeding is capped, it’s reasonable to choose to optimise for other factors such as practicality, father-child bonding time and so on. Does breastfeeding negatively impact father-child bond ? I find it highly unlikely. We do know for a fact that it’s better for health.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Does breastfeeding negatively impact father-child bond Exclusive breastfeeding (not exclusively feeding breastmilk, but exclusively breastfeeding) would to a certain extent, yes.
    - rastignack 4y ago
      Do you have behavioral studies to back this up ? My breastfed girl is daddy’s daughter.
      - buran77 4y ago
        Exclusive breastfeeding means the mother's presence is essential, she has to be available most of the time as the primary care giver. Due to the way modern societies and nuclear families work, it's reasonable to assume that it's unlikely both partners would take long term leave to be with the infant, or that the father could be there anywhere near the same amount of time as the mother. So the infant would have far more time to bond with the mother than with the father. Whether this time alone is enough to guarantee a stronger bond is probably worth a separate discussion.
bergenty 4y ago
- rastignack 4y ago
  Breastfed children tend to have less stomachaches. When your baby cries because he cannot digest the formula, you arguably lose a big part of the benefits. Also breastfeeding is much more convenient when traveling. I think using formula was heavily promoted as a way to establish equality, and many people turned a blind eye on the drawbacks for the sake of progress. It’s a good thing that we are now prioritizing babies’ health.
  - tomerv 4y ago
    > Breastfed children tend to have less stomachaches. Maybe on average, but specific cases can vary wildly. Some foods that the breastfeeding mother consumes can cause issues. Milk, soy, and caffeine are known troublemakers - but good luck finding out which one is the source of stomach issues for your baby!
    - rastignack 4y ago
      It’s not that hard. Breastfeeding mother should no drink more than a cup of coffee per day. Regarding milk, avoiding it for a few days and checking for improvements is enough to see if it’s the culprit.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    I think we’re both on the same page. I’m all for breastfeeding and it’s what we’re currently doing and plan on continuing for atleast two years (along with other food of course).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    I worried about things like this when I found out that we would have to formula feed our baby. But then I dug into the literature and found that the effect in most cases, while statistically significant, were very minor. Usually just a few percentage points different. And that's not to be interpreted as "kids who were formula fed were 2% sicker or scored 1% lower on tests". It's more like, out of the group of kids we studied, some formula fed kids scored higher and others scored lower. But it averaged out to a few points lower. There are so many other, much more important factors in raising a healthy kid. The breastfeeding vs formula is hardly worth the brainpower.
petra 4y ago
"Generation X and millennials are in worse health than their parents and grandparents were at their age. That's the conclusion of a new study that looked at markers of physical and mental health across the generations."[1] Of course, there could be many reasons for that. [1]https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210325/gen-x-millennials-in-worse-health-than-prior-generations https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210325/gen-x-mill...
- tptacek 4y ago
  Again, that'd be an argument against breastfeeding, given that millenials were born at a peak time for breastfeeding. Really, though, it's probably got nothing to do with breastfeeding.
blub 4y ago
The father can do everything except breastfeeding, so there’s no reason (except illness) to divide labour on exactly the thing that evolution built the mother to do.
- thfuran 4y ago
  Mothers probably don't need sleep, right?
  - CrHn3 4y ago
    Breastfeeding and sleep aren’t mutually exclusive.
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      They definitely are for some mothers. It is very difficult for many people to wake multiple times during the night and still get a good night's sleep.
  - dham 4y ago
    I mean I'm sure it's tough but it's not forever. Also co-sleeping helps. Never understood why people get up to feed babies.
  - blub 4y ago
    There are cots which attach to the parent’s bed and special blouses which allow for easy breastfeeding without undressing. The whole process is as simple as dragging the baby over, taking one breast out and bringing them near to it. The baby will take care of the rest. Mothers do get sleep, including during the day together with the baby. There are solutions out there for many frequent or rare problems. A good midwife and experienced mothers in the family / circle of friends are priceless.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Who gives a shit how evolution "built the mother"? It also built us to walk the plains and jog slowly after ruminants for hours on end to feed our tribes. In 2022, what the mother probably needs to do is get up in the morning reasonably refreshed and get in to her office.

kqr 4y ago

The way you phrase this makes it sound like your experiences (direct or indirect) with breastfeeding have been easy. You should know that it can be very difficult for a lot of mothers, in any number of ways. Having such a strong prior on preferring it has made many people's lives much harder than necessary.

colordrops 4y ago
I didn't read that in the comment at all.
aljungberg 4y ago
On the contrary, it was not easy at all but that’s a story for another day. My argument is merely that our opening position, until proven otherwise, should be that the child benefits. (It can, unfortunately, simultaneously be hard for the mother and beneficial for the child. Many aspects of parenting are.) And again I do think it’s important to note that huge numbers of children grow up well on formula. So if breastfeeding doesn’t work out for whatever reason there’s no reason to lose sleep over it. We can suspect it is beneficial and yet make a rational choice to forego it based on other factors.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  You seem to be ignoring the fact that too many sacrifices by the mother in the name of breastfeeding can also be detrimental to the child. There is a good reason they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on before helping your child in the case of a depressurizing plane.
  - blub 4y ago
    If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work, ok, use formula. But if those sacrifices are things like being tired, sore breasts, etc there are normal and there are solutions available.

dzhiurgis 4y ago

> improves the baby’s immune system I think it just protects them while they are fed, does not offer long term protection. Anecdotally ours started to get way more sick in daycare after we stopped breastfeeding, but it also coincided with autumn season.

aaron695 4y ago

emsy 4y ago

>It is an expensive process so it must have an evolutionary advantage. >But from what I remember there is good evidence that it improves the baby’s immune system among many other things. >So bottom line is in the absence of massive amounts of strong evidence against breastfeeding, by default you should favour it. These are all bad arguments.

Knufen 4y ago
Perhaps instead of saying "this is bad", you should expand.

renewiltord 4y ago

It's quite well known that Australopithecus were outcompeted because they used to bottle feed.

bigbillheck 4y ago

> It is an expensive process so it must have an evolutionary advantage It does, it means that newborns don't have to be born developed enough to get their own food.

lultimouomo 4y ago

> It is an expensive process Even more so it's developing a formula milk industry; it's got to be a huge advantage.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]