4 ms·

"functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion" I haven't actually used this guy's knives. But I've used cheap knives and I've cut myself on

"functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion" I haven't actually used this guy's knives. But I've used cheap knives and I've cut myself on cheap, dull knives that don't hold their edge. And I've used moderately expensive knives. It's night and day. Cheap knives just aren't functionally equivalent. The same can be said about coffee, chocolate and other fair trade stuff. Ground Maxwell coffee that comes in a can might be functionally equivalent to Intelligentsia beans at the task of "deliver caffeine in a hot liquid form", but that doesn't mean the Intelligentsia is more expensive just because rich people want to feel superior to people who drink Maxwell. It's in part because the Intelligentsia is less efficiently produced that it tastes better. And as far as I understand it, the Maxwell coffee is being produced in such a way that the true cost (to the workers, to the land) is not actually incorporated.

onemoreact 15y ago
There is a difference between a premium brand, and a premium brand that promotes fair trade. As a friend used to work in a supermarket used to say, when the oranges got a little old we would relabel them as organic and increase the price. Note: I buy organic food, but I try and verify it's a bettor product before it's a habit. Otherwise it's vary easy to spend more money on something you like less.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  > There is a difference between a premium brand, and a premium brand that promotes fair trade. That's true, but when it comes to coffee, in my experience the two overlap a lot.
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    Sure, I am not a coffee drinker, but I can see where they might overlap a lot. I am just suggesting that the kind of things you do to get great coffee might enable you to call it free trade coffee, but that does not mean simply buying free trade coffee means it's great coffee. Or more generally beware of the hype cycle. It starts with people that believe in the product and add quality in areas that are important but less noticeable. Then get's taken over by people that find out they can increase their markup by ticking off some check boxes. Until, all those hidden values are lost and all your left with is the minimum required to pass the test.
ctdonath 15y ago
Indeed. "Functionally equivalent" all too often misses the point. Endless arguments have been had over Apple computers vs. "functionally equivalent" computers for far lower costs ... funny thing is, it's Apple that has achieved "most valuable company worldwide period" status, showing customers see something superior in addition to the standard simplistic comparison charts. Ditto cars. For years I wondered "what is it about BMWs and other German cars? ok, they're built nice, but really - why?" Then I drove a Mercedes on the Autobahn. Sometimes you just can't quantify in simple charts the difference between "can do" vs. "excellent" - but customers demand and pay for it. Coffee? Snob here. Haven't gone so far as roasting my own, but have gone thru endless varieties, roasts, and makers to settle on palatable superiority. Beer? No, it's NOT an acquired taste. Bavarian brews bought & imbibed in Bavaria are 100x better than the canned swill here. But of course, the cheap & premium stuff are considered "functionally equivalent" by the rabble. Let them be content in their ignorance.
- gte910h 15y ago
  > Beer? No, it's NOT an acquired taste. Bavarian brews bought & imbibed in Bavaria are 100x better than the canned swill here. While German friends are proud of their beer, they love American microbrews and practically survive on the stuff whenever they visit the US.
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    Budweiser and Millers are canned swill. Microbrews are not :-)
    - rubashov 15y ago
      Budweiser is extremely close to a couple of the popular pilsners served in the czech republic. People who pretend otherwise are just pretentious.
      - gte910h 15y ago
        They use 30% rice in the Czech Republic? I know Alton Brown thinks Bud is excellent with sushi
tptacek 15y ago
Most of the "best" knives are in fact mass-produced. In fact, the knives this guy is talking about, made by "a couple of robots in Germany" aren't "cheap knives"; they're the super expensive heavy full-tang forged Wusthof and Henckel's knives that are themselves kitchen status symbols. But even allowing for that: there are extremely good mass-produced stamped "cheap" knives. Cooks Illustrated's favorite knife is a stamped Victorinox you can get for like $35. Let's not pretend that there is really a crisis of mass-produced crappy knives that requires a hand-crafted antidote. There is real value to what this guy does --- I'm drooling over the idea of having a 10" chef's knife done to spec --- but really the western world pretty much has the problem of "how to make a good cost-effective chef's knife" licked.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  You're totally right. I posted this before I went and found out that this guy's knives are in a different realm than what I've ever used. Looks like they run in the region of $300-500, not $50-80 which is what I was referring to. There's a few posts elsewhere in this thread that point to other mass produced but quality knives. The nice knife I like and use every day is definitely mass produced. I learned about knives today! That being said, I still think patio11's characterization is a bit unfair, and I stand by what I was saying about coffee.
  - sk5t 15y ago
    There really is a wide gulf between the best series of Wusthof, and a handmade Murray Carter (or I presume Cut Brooklyn) kitchen knife. But the latter are not for everyone... like, stop paying attention for a moment and goodbye fingertips. The best knives are so thin and sharp, that you can dice an onion without tears because you've not mushed the thing up. I have a set of good German knives too, and I reach for them when a softer, less brittle edge is needed, such as when dealing with bones or partially frozen stuff. They're still very, very good, but it would be easy to tell blindfolded which is which.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      I really don't know how much of this I believe. Maybe for sushi. But pro chefs in fine dining kitchens with zero tolerance for variation in an onion brunoise do not as a general rule use $400 custom knives. Some surely do, but they're not a job requirement. My butcher uses a "crappy" mass produced stamped knife. To a large extent I think these are fetish objects. Don't get me wrong: they are freaking cool and I want one.
rubashov 15y ago
> cheap ... dull knives that don't hold their edge Well with knives the trade off is sharpness vs how often you have to sharpen. Harder steel will "hold the edge" and require sharpening less often. But to get a truly sharp edge you have to use softer steel and be willing to hone and strop frequently. The good soft steel in high quality knives is also not stainless. You get black and orange rust streaks. I'm sure this presents a marketing problem.

onemoreact 15y ago

There is a difference between a premium brand, and a premium brand that promotes fair trade. As a friend used to work in a supermarket used to say, when the oranges got a little old we would relabel them as organic and increase the price. Note: I buy organic food, but I try and verify it's a bettor product before it's a habit. Otherwise it's vary easy to spend more money on something you like less.

spacemanaki 15y ago
> There is a difference between a premium brand, and a premium brand that promotes fair trade. That's true, but when it comes to coffee, in my experience the two overlap a lot.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  Sure, I am not a coffee drinker, but I can see where they might overlap a lot. I am just suggesting that the kind of things you do to get great coffee might enable you to call it free trade coffee, but that does not mean simply buying free trade coffee means it's great coffee. Or more generally beware of the hype cycle. It starts with people that believe in the product and add quality in areas that are important but less noticeable. Then get's taken over by people that find out they can increase their markup by ticking off some check boxes. Until, all those hidden values are lost and all your left with is the minimum required to pass the test.

ctdonath 15y ago

Indeed. "Functionally equivalent" all too often misses the point. Endless arguments have been had over Apple computers vs. "functionally equivalent" computers for far lower costs ... funny thing is, it's Apple that has achieved "most valuable company worldwide period" status, showing customers see something superior in addition to the standard simplistic comparison charts. Ditto cars. For years I wondered "what is it about BMWs and other German cars? ok, they're built nice, but really - why?" Then I drove a Mercedes on the Autobahn. Sometimes you just can't quantify in simple charts the difference between "can do" vs. "excellent" - but customers demand and pay for it. Coffee? Snob here. Haven't gone so far as roasting my own, but have gone thru endless varieties, roasts, and makers to settle on palatable superiority. Beer? No, it's NOT an acquired taste. Bavarian brews bought & imbibed in Bavaria are 100x better than the canned swill here. But of course, the cheap & premium stuff are considered "functionally equivalent" by the rabble. Let them be content in their ignorance.

gte910h 15y ago
> Beer? No, it's NOT an acquired taste. Bavarian brews bought & imbibed in Bavaria are 100x better than the canned swill here. While German friends are proud of their beer, they love American microbrews and practically survive on the stuff whenever they visit the US.
- einhverfr 15y ago
  Budweiser and Millers are canned swill. Microbrews are not :-)
  - rubashov 15y ago
    Budweiser is extremely close to a couple of the popular pilsners served in the czech republic. People who pretend otherwise are just pretentious.
    - gte910h 15y ago
      They use 30% rice in the Czech Republic? I know Alton Brown thinks Bud is excellent with sushi

tptacek 15y ago

Most of the "best" knives are in fact mass-produced. In fact, the knives this guy is talking about, made by "a couple of robots in Germany" aren't "cheap knives"; they're the super expensive heavy full-tang forged Wusthof and Henckel's knives that are themselves kitchen status symbols. But even allowing for that: there are extremely good mass-produced stamped "cheap" knives. Cooks Illustrated's favorite knife is a stamped Victorinox you can get for like $35. Let's not pretend that there is really a crisis of mass-produced crappy knives that requires a hand-crafted antidote. There is real value to what this guy does --- I'm drooling over the idea of having a 10" chef's knife done to spec --- but really the western world pretty much has the problem of "how to make a good cost-effective chef's knife" licked.

spacemanaki 15y ago
You're totally right. I posted this before I went and found out that this guy's knives are in a different realm than what I've ever used. Looks like they run in the region of $300-500, not $50-80 which is what I was referring to. There's a few posts elsewhere in this thread that point to other mass produced but quality knives. The nice knife I like and use every day is definitely mass produced. I learned about knives today! That being said, I still think patio11's characterization is a bit unfair, and I stand by what I was saying about coffee.
- sk5t 15y ago
  There really is a wide gulf between the best series of Wusthof, and a handmade Murray Carter (or I presume Cut Brooklyn) kitchen knife. But the latter are not for everyone... like, stop paying attention for a moment and goodbye fingertips. The best knives are so thin and sharp, that you can dice an onion without tears because you've not mushed the thing up. I have a set of good German knives too, and I reach for them when a softer, less brittle edge is needed, such as when dealing with bones or partially frozen stuff. They're still very, very good, but it would be easy to tell blindfolded which is which.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    I really don't know how much of this I believe. Maybe for sushi. But pro chefs in fine dining kitchens with zero tolerance for variation in an onion brunoise do not as a general rule use $400 custom knives. Some surely do, but they're not a job requirement. My butcher uses a "crappy" mass produced stamped knife. To a large extent I think these are fetish objects. Don't get me wrong: they are freaking cool and I want one.

rubashov 15y ago

> cheap ... dull knives that don't hold their edge Well with knives the trade off is sharpness vs how often you have to sharpen. Harder steel will "hold the edge" and require sharpening less often. But to get a truly sharp edge you have to use softer steel and be willing to hone and strop frequently. The good soft steel in high quality knives is also not stainless. You get black and orange rust streaks. I'm sure this presents a marketing problem.