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> I would much rather have the govt provide incentives for there to be more than one provider. In the UK, ISPs are forced to lease their last-mile lines to any

> I would much rather have the govt provide incentives for there to be more than one provider. In the UK, ISPs are forced to lease their last-mile lines to anyone who wants to provide internet service. This results in a decent amount of competition.

rootusrootus 4y ago
The US did that. But only with copper. And so the telcos just ripped out all the copper. There's not too much left.
- hamandcheese 4y ago
  What is your definition of copper? Almost everywhere I’ve ever lived, the only broadband internet available was provided using coax cable.
  - NegativeLatency 4y ago
    Phone lines, DSL, ADSL
  - deepsun 4y ago
    Exactly. Parent meant copper home phone lines (at least ADSL could run there, not as good but still).
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    POTS. ILECS were required for a while (still are?) to sell access to their central office DSLAMs. For a hot moment in the early 00s there was a fair bit of competition for DSL service (at least in the Bay Area). If memory serves – as technology moved on to higher speed DSL that worked over shorter distances (and required more RTs as a result) legislation stayed the same. Essentially the only things that ILECS were required to provide access to were outdated products that nobody wants. Sonic finally shut down their resold AT&T ADSL (G.DMT) service this year in large part because it was so unpopular. They still offer ADSL2/VDSL2 service out of their own DSLAMs as well as fiber and resold AT&T whatever (not sure how that came about).
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > ILECS were required for a while (still are?) to sell access to their central office DSLAMs. It was just the copper, not the DSLAM access. What you could do is buy colo space at the CO and install your own DSLAM, and the ILEC was required to cross connect the copper to your cage. What you did from there was your business, as was all of the CPE. I worked at a CLEC for 10 years during the good times. Even set up a few of our colos myself back in the day. I still think we (the US government) should have kept going and required incumbents to lease access to any last-mile wiring technology. It should be part of the price for enjoying what amounts to a government-sanctioned monopoly. Even better, just make the last-mile network a regulated utility like water & electric.
      - inferiorhuman 4y ago
        Ah, even better haha. Agreed that the FCC should've continued requiring open access. However I'd go further and say that much of the infrastructure should be state owned and leased to private companies. Or outlaw exclusive franchise agreements, require timely access to utility poles, etc. Regulate like an electric company? Well I'm from California and given how bad our electric companies are and how toothless the state regulator is I'm not sure how much of an improvement that would be.
hamandcheese 4y ago
If, say, Comcast had to lease their last mile, why wouldn’t they charge an arm and a leg to whoever was trying to sell internet? I don’t see how this would bring prices down meaningfully.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I assume regulation would set the price. AFAIK that's what we did with copper when we created CLECs.
- deepsun 4y ago
  It's all solvable, as other countries example shows.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  The law says they must lease to themselves at the same cost.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  You can practically regulate how this works by determining cost and markup. I mean most places have one power company for example and they aren't simply allowed to charge you whatever they please. In fact this was done years ago successfully. It was discontinued so cable companies could make greater profit.
gnicholas 4y ago
Yeah we have MVNOs that do this for mobile. But it can't currently compete with wired internet on price, and we apparently don't require it for cable internet.
closeparen 4y ago
ISP customer service is never fun, but my problem is not really with who picks up the phone. It's with the physical network that's provisioned for my neighborhood and the way it's maintained. The lessee has no more power over this than I do, only now I can get stuck in customer-service hell between two different companies instead of two different departments.

rootusrootus 4y ago

The US did that. But only with copper. And so the telcos just ripped out all the copper. There's not too much left.

hamandcheese 4y ago
What is your definition of copper? Almost everywhere I’ve ever lived, the only broadband internet available was provided using coax cable.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Phone lines, DSL, ADSL
- deepsun 4y ago
  Exactly. Parent meant copper home phone lines (at least ADSL could run there, not as good but still).
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  POTS. ILECS were required for a while (still are?) to sell access to their central office DSLAMs. For a hot moment in the early 00s there was a fair bit of competition for DSL service (at least in the Bay Area). If memory serves – as technology moved on to higher speed DSL that worked over shorter distances (and required more RTs as a result) legislation stayed the same. Essentially the only things that ILECS were required to provide access to were outdated products that nobody wants. Sonic finally shut down their resold AT&T ADSL (G.DMT) service this year in large part because it was so unpopular. They still offer ADSL2/VDSL2 service out of their own DSLAMs as well as fiber and resold AT&T whatever (not sure how that came about).
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > ILECS were required for a while (still are?) to sell access to their central office DSLAMs. It was just the copper, not the DSLAM access. What you could do is buy colo space at the CO and install your own DSLAM, and the ILEC was required to cross connect the copper to your cage. What you did from there was your business, as was all of the CPE. I worked at a CLEC for 10 years during the good times. Even set up a few of our colos myself back in the day. I still think we (the US government) should have kept going and required incumbents to lease access to any last-mile wiring technology. It should be part of the price for enjoying what amounts to a government-sanctioned monopoly. Even better, just make the last-mile network a regulated utility like water & electric.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Ah, even better haha. Agreed that the FCC should've continued requiring open access. However I'd go further and say that much of the infrastructure should be state owned and leased to private companies. Or outlaw exclusive franchise agreements, require timely access to utility poles, etc. Regulate like an electric company? Well I'm from California and given how bad our electric companies are and how toothless the state regulator is I'm not sure how much of an improvement that would be.

hamandcheese 4y ago

If, say, Comcast had to lease their last mile, why wouldn’t they charge an arm and a leg to whoever was trying to sell internet? I don’t see how this would bring prices down meaningfully.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I assume regulation would set the price. AFAIK that's what we did with copper when we created CLECs.
deepsun 4y ago
It's all solvable, as other countries example shows.
Symbiote 4y ago
The law says they must lease to themselves at the same cost.
michaelmrose 4y ago
You can practically regulate how this works by determining cost and markup. I mean most places have one power company for example and they aren't simply allowed to charge you whatever they please. In fact this was done years ago successfully. It was discontinued so cable companies could make greater profit.

gnicholas 4y ago

Yeah we have MVNOs that do this for mobile. But it can't currently compete with wired internet on price, and we apparently don't require it for cable internet.

closeparen 4y ago

ISP customer service is never fun, but my problem is not really with who picks up the phone. It's with the physical network that's provisioned for my neighborhood and the way it's maintained. The lessee has no more power over this than I do, only now I can get stuck in customer-service hell between two different companies instead of two different departments.