5 ms·

This reminds me of Jeremiah Denton, a POW in that same war who was interviewed on TV to explain that the prisoners were being treated humanely. As he gave the v

This reminds me of Jeremiah Denton, a POW in that same war who was interviewed on TV to explain that the prisoners were being treated humanely. As he gave the verbal answers his captors expected, he blinked his eyes in Morse Code: – ––– •–• – ••– •–• • T O R T U R E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rufnWLVQcKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rufnWLVQcKg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Denton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Denton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code Epilog: A few years ago, someone gave me a Fourth of July T-shirt. Made in Vietnam. It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars.

RC_ITR 4y ago
> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. Well, counterpoint: it really shows how China’s ascent has made for strange bedfellows.
- lupire 4y ago
gedy 4y ago
> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. I don't know about that, I do think it shows that the lives lost to fight 'American Imperialism' were mostly a waste, as Vietnam today is largely indistinguishable from if South Vietnam had won/continued. There's no US bases there I suppose, but USSR did have bases after the war. They also lost hundreds of thousands afterwards as boat people.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  We probably should count Viet Namese soldiers and civilians killed, on both sides, and Cambodians and Laotians, and probably even victims of Khner Rouge. Then, all the forests wiped out with Agent Orange, and the long-lasting dioxin contamination. I have not seen any accounting of species driven to extinction by this treatment. Probably many were not even catalogued first.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  > largely indistinguishable from if South Vietnam had won/continued Oh, it's not even remotely similar.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    South Vietnam was so corrupt and badly run that I would expect Vietnam to look much worse upon its legacy. Maybe looking more like Sri Lanka today.
    - einpoklum 4y ago
      Exactly. South Vietnam was in many ways like Afghanistan under US rule.
    - gedy 4y ago
      You may not realize how brutal, corrupt, and oppressive North Vietnam was, and well before any US involvement in their civil war, but my family does. The number of refugees from the North before 1975 and then from the whole country after 1975 is very telling (and not due to US ruining the country or other such propaganda). Vietnam only recovered after the USSR fell and they were forced to align with the west again, hence the original point about South Vietnam.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        I'm not really sure that North Vietnam had opportunity of being corrupt since they didn't have much of an economy to speak of at the moment. However, I remember some bad facts about South Vietnam either, such as US placing puppet top government officials there who were firebrand catholic, in a buddhist country, and who tried to hinder buddhism to the extent where the country was on the brink of civil war, and which also contributed to North having so many willing agents in the South. > In 1963, the Ngô family's grip on power became unstuck during the Buddhist crisis, during which the nation's Buddhist majority rose up against the pro-Catholic regime. Nhu tried to break the Buddhists' opposition by using the Special Forces in raids on prominent Buddhist temples that left hundreds dead, and framing the regular army for it.
einpoklum 4y ago
> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. Don't make a false equivalence. The Vietnamese were occupied by foreigners and did indeed - on the whole - want to struggle and fight for liberation from the US. As for people in the US - they were sent off to fight for geopolitical advantages of the ruling elite, for rubber supply security etc.
- Stratoscope 4y ago
  Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I certainly didn't mean to make a false equivalence, only to mention that most people in either land didn't want this war. Of course as you point out, once forced into it, the Vietnamese people really had little choice but to defend their home. It reminds me a bit of another war going on right now.

RC_ITR 4y ago

> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. Well, counterpoint: it really shows how China’s ascent has made for strange bedfellows.

lupire 4y ago

gedy 4y ago

> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. I don't know about that, I do think it shows that the lives lost to fight 'American Imperialism' were mostly a waste, as Vietnam today is largely indistinguishable from if South Vietnam had won/continued. There's no US bases there I suppose, but USSR did have bases after the war. They also lost hundreds of thousands afterwards as boat people.

ncmncm 4y ago
We probably should count Viet Namese soldiers and civilians killed, on both sides, and Cambodians and Laotians, and probably even victims of Khner Rouge. Then, all the forests wiped out with Agent Orange, and the long-lasting dioxin contamination. I have not seen any accounting of species driven to extinction by this treatment. Probably many were not even catalogued first.
einpoklum 4y ago
> largely indistinguishable from if South Vietnam had won/continued Oh, it's not even remotely similar.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  South Vietnam was so corrupt and badly run that I would expect Vietnam to look much worse upon its legacy. Maybe looking more like Sri Lanka today.
  - einpoklum 4y ago
    Exactly. South Vietnam was in many ways like Afghanistan under US rule.
  - gedy 4y ago
    You may not realize how brutal, corrupt, and oppressive North Vietnam was, and well before any US involvement in their civil war, but my family does. The number of refugees from the North before 1975 and then from the whole country after 1975 is very telling (and not due to US ruining the country or other such propaganda). Vietnam only recovered after the USSR fell and they were forced to align with the west again, hence the original point about South Vietnam.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      I'm not really sure that North Vietnam had opportunity of being corrupt since they didn't have much of an economy to speak of at the moment. However, I remember some bad facts about South Vietnam either, such as US placing puppet top government officials there who were firebrand catholic, in a buddhist country, and who tried to hinder buddhism to the extent where the country was on the brink of civil war, and which also contributed to North having so many willing agents in the South. > In 1963, the Ngô family's grip on power became unstuck during the Buddhist crisis, during which the nation's Buddhist majority rose up against the pro-Catholic regime. Nhu tried to break the Buddhists' opposition by using the Special Forces in raids on prominent Buddhist temples that left hundreds dead, and framing the regular army for it.

einpoklum 4y ago

> It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars. Don't make a false equivalence. The Vietnamese were occupied by foreigners and did indeed - on the whole - want to struggle and fight for liberation from the US. As for people in the US - they were sent off to fight for geopolitical advantages of the ruling elite, for rubber supply security etc.

Stratoscope 4y ago
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I certainly didn't mean to make a false equivalence, only to mention that most people in either land didn't want this war. Of course as you point out, once forced into it, the Vietnamese people really had little choice but to defend their home. It reminds me a bit of another war going on right now.