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The idea that they executed Socrates as a scapegoat doesn't make sense to me. I think the people genuinely thought Socrates' ideas corrupted the youth and indi

by m_a_g 4y ago

The idea that they executed Socrates as a scapegoat doesn't make sense to me. I think the people genuinely thought Socrates' ideas corrupted the youth and indirectly gave birth to the Tyrants. But we may never know.

googlryas 4y ago
I feel like the modern equivalent is Curtis Yarvin getting banned from Google cafes.
- mmcwilliams 4y ago
  Is that the actual modern equivalent of being forced to drink hemlock? I'm sure it's bad to get banned from those cafes but those two punishments are of very different levels of severity.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    You've clearly never tried the kale smoothies at a google cafe. Just to die for.
gweinberg 4y ago
It's funny, in the version of the story I had heard before, Socrates was tried while the Tyrants were still in power and he was executed because his ideas were teaching his students that their rule was unjust. But I also had had the impression that the tyrants were basically just a bunch of looters. If it is true that they were actually idealistic fanatics willing to commit mass murder in order to bring about their utopia, the idea that they were inspired by history's most famous philosopher makes a lot more sense.
- vintermann 4y ago
  "Idealists" is stretching it, but it seems plausible to me that they shared the extremely authoritarian class/caste-based ideas Plato would later express. And it's not entirely impossible, even, that those ideas really came from Socrates.
- watwut 4y ago
  Yeah, in the story as I was taught as a kid, the thirty tyrants period and Socrates actual ideas gets skipped. It sounds like he was killed over unimportant disagreements. But the fuller story makes so much more sense.
chasil 4y ago
The history that you have read is very rarely what actually happened. There was a famous saying that I remember, "a translation of a poem is like a woman: if she is pretty, she is not faithful, and if she is faithful, she is not pretty." A thousand pardons for the inherent misogyny; it is not intentional. ...and I thought it was John Ciardi. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yevgeny_yevtushenko_391310 https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yevgeny_yevtushenko_39131...
areoform 4y ago
Author here, There are many overlapping possibilities that aren't necessarily incompatible. For example, over here, the Girard's conceptualization of the scapegoat isn't incompatible with your perspective. It's important for the community involved in the process to genuinely believe that the scapegoat is guilty. And, if you look at the timeline, this trial (and others that we may not know about) helped to restore Athens to relative stability. As I've argued, there's good indication that some of his ideas may have indeed influenced his students to commit treasonous acts. The list of his former students who went on to either overthrow the Athenian government or defect to Sparta is quite long. It's possible that there's something there. But there is a general consensus that he, generally, didn't advocate for it. In Plato's and Xenephon's dialogues he explicitly advocated harmony with the laws of the polis. And Plato posits that one of the reasons why he chose to stay was because of this belief. That being said, I also think that the Athenians wanted to get rid of him, they didn't want to actually kill him. Usually, in ancient Athens, punishments were carried out in a day or two of their delivery. But due to a festival and other reasons, his punishment wasn't carried out for more than a month and he had plenty of means and opportunity to escape. Socrates was the one who refused to leave. He, for the lack of a better phrase, committed suicide by jury.

by m_a_g 4y ago

googlryas 4y ago

I feel like the modern equivalent is Curtis Yarvin getting banned from Google cafes.

mmcwilliams 4y ago
Is that the actual modern equivalent of being forced to drink hemlock? I'm sure it's bad to get banned from those cafes but those two punishments are of very different levels of severity.
- googlryas 4y ago
  You've clearly never tried the kale smoothies at a google cafe. Just to die for.

gweinberg 4y ago

It's funny, in the version of the story I had heard before, Socrates was tried while the Tyrants were still in power and he was executed because his ideas were teaching his students that their rule was unjust. But I also had had the impression that the tyrants were basically just a bunch of looters. If it is true that they were actually idealistic fanatics willing to commit mass murder in order to bring about their utopia, the idea that they were inspired by history's most famous philosopher makes a lot more sense.

vintermann 4y ago
"Idealists" is stretching it, but it seems plausible to me that they shared the extremely authoritarian class/caste-based ideas Plato would later express. And it's not entirely impossible, even, that those ideas really came from Socrates.
watwut 4y ago
Yeah, in the story as I was taught as a kid, the thirty tyrants period and Socrates actual ideas gets skipped. It sounds like he was killed over unimportant disagreements. But the fuller story makes so much more sense.

chasil 4y ago

The history that you have read is very rarely what actually happened. There was a famous saying that I remember, "a translation of a poem is like a woman: if she is pretty, she is not faithful, and if she is faithful, she is not pretty." A thousand pardons for the inherent misogyny; it is not intentional. ...and I thought it was John Ciardi. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yevgeny_yevtushenko_391310 https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yevgeny_yevtushenko_39131...

areoform 4y ago

Author here, There are many overlapping possibilities that aren't necessarily incompatible. For example, over here, the Girard's conceptualization of the scapegoat isn't incompatible with your perspective. It's important for the community involved in the process to genuinely believe that the scapegoat is guilty. And, if you look at the timeline, this trial (and others that we may not know about) helped to restore Athens to relative stability. As I've argued, there's good indication that some of his ideas may have indeed influenced his students to commit treasonous acts. The list of his former students who went on to either overthrow the Athenian government or defect to Sparta is quite long. It's possible that there's something there. But there is a general consensus that he, generally, didn't advocate for it. In Plato's and Xenephon's dialogues he explicitly advocated harmony with the laws of the polis. And Plato posits that one of the reasons why he chose to stay was because of this belief. That being said, I also think that the Athenians wanted to get rid of him, they didn't want to actually kill him. Usually, in ancient Athens, punishments were carried out in a day or two of their delivery. But due to a festival and other reasons, his punishment wasn't carried out for more than a month and he had plenty of means and opportunity to escape. Socrates was the one who refused to leave. He, for the lack of a better phrase, committed suicide by jury.