6 ms·

African kings on medieval and Renaissance maps

90 points by benbreen 4y ago

mercy_dude 4y ago
Love the British library and all its exhibitions. It’s always a joy whenever I am in London to walk into their exhibitions or just walk around. Both the library and British museums are wealth of information that feel local people don’t appreciate much.
elevaet 4y ago
I noticed that (the) Manicongo has some folkloric fame in afro-Brazilian culture, the/his name is mentioned in songs and seems to persist in the collective memory. I'd love to know if it's the Manicongo mentioned on these maps that people remember, or if it's the more general title ("king of the congo"), and if there's any story behind this persistent folk knowledge. Wikipedia is thin on details, perhaps some Brazilian HN members can chime in here?
- peanut_worm 4y ago
  I think its just a title referring to whoever was the current king of Kongo
- dougk 4y ago
  It was the title meaning "king of Kongo". This wikipedia article has a detailed list of the Mwenekongo (Manicongo): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Kongo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Kongo
bnralt 4y ago
Interesting that the only king they can identify is Mansa Musa, and that he keeps popping up on the maps. Given how poorly documented Mansa Musa's reign was, and that the main sources are a small number of Muslim accounts of his Hajj written by people who weren't there when it happened, it seems that to Europeans he was a quasi-legendary and prototypical African king (perhaps similar to the completely legendary Prestor John). Though I suppose Mansa Musa is held in similar regard today. He's usually the first medieval African ruler I see people bring up, and they often repeat the poorly sourced legend of him being the richest person in history as if it were fact (even this article repeats it).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- md_ 4y ago
  What’s your issue with the “richest person in history” claim? I was just reading “Fistful of Shells”, which is written by a reasonably serious historian. He repeats this claim, but sources it to this somewhat silly Time Magazine article: https://money.com/the-10-richest-people-of-all-time-2/ https://money.com/the-10-richest-people-of-all-time-2/. That article in turn puts forth a surprisingly thoughtful methodology: https://money.com/richest-people-of-all-time-methodology/ https://money.com/richest-people-of-all-time-methodology/. Obviously these comparisons are of limited value, as the methodology link above bothers to point out, but I don’t think it’s crazy—insofar as even stating “wealthiest person of all time” is meaningful, Mansa Musa looks to be a credible candidate.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    > insofar as even stating “wealthiest person of all time” is meaningful Quite, how can you compare Alexander to Musa to Montezuma to Rockerfeller to Bezos to Putin? Wealth itself is pretty meaningless once you get to a certain level of course. Who's wealthier, Bezos or Musk? Does it matter? Would you rather be Mansa Musa or someone of median wealth and income in say New Zealand in the 21st century?
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      > Would you rather be Mansa Musa or someone of median wealth and income in say New Zealand in the 21st century? This is probably a more interesting quest than you suspect. It turns on your preferences around material comforts vs. you love of control and power.
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      Depending on the specific locale and period in history, there's a lot of people who were likely happier and meaningfully freer than people in 21st century New Zealand and could have expected to live just as long. Modern people are generally very physically and mentally unhealthy, and most of us work now work in conditions that older peoples would have considered unfree (ie my employment depends on the whims of someone else and my labor primarily benefits them.) I go back and forth as to whether having the Internet and air conditioning make up for it. I don't think I'd want to be Mansa Musa personally, but I think it's pretty likely he enjoyed his life a lot more than the average person today.
coffeeblack 4y ago
Too bad the text becomes inaccurate and political towards the end.
- Veen 4y ago
  It's somewhat odd that the article addresses slavery without mentioning that Mansa Musa owned many thousands of slaves and that slavery was prevalent in West and Central Africa during the Medieval, pre-Colonial period.
  - coffeeblack 4y ago
    Neither it mentions the extensive slave trade with North Africa and Arabia, only the gold trade. Also telling that my criticism in that regard was immediately downvoted.
    - truculent 4y ago
      I would suggest that he downvotes have as much to do with the lack of elaboration or supporting argument as the judgement itself.
      - coffeeblack 4y ago
        True. I found it so obvious that I didn’t see a reason to point it out explicitly.
  - autopilot23 4y ago
    Slavery existed in every region of the world. This does not negate the destructive affects the Atlantic slave trade had on the continent, its kingdoms and resources. The article did not argue that "Slavery didn't exist under pre-Colonial rule". Side point, it's always funny to me how a lot of Westerns are hesitant to admit that African societies in Pre-Colonial times had history, science, culture, etc. just as any other society, but very eager to exclaim that they had slavery. It's also as if the existence of slavery does not require a certain type of social organization to have been already developed, which then they claim Africans didn't have.
bsaul 4y ago
- notright 4y ago
stonlyb 4y ago
Related story of another African king and some of the erasure that enables the bias towards believing Africa had no pre-colonial wealth or tech. From the article: “When Europeans first came to Africa, they considered the architecture very disorganized and thus primitive. It never occurred to them that the Africans might have been using a form of mathematics that they hadn’t even discovered yet.” https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-cities-5-benin-city-edo-nigeria-mighty-medieval-capital-lost-without-trace https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-citi...
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  This is the second time a capital city named Edo got renamed to something else

90 points by benbreen 4y ago

Love the British library and all its exhibitions. It’s always a joy whenever I am in London to walk into their exhibitions or just walk around. Both the library and British museums are wealth of information that feel local people don’t appreciate much.

elevaet 4y ago

I noticed that (the) Manicongo has some folkloric fame in afro-Brazilian culture, the/his name is mentioned in songs and seems to persist in the collective memory. I'd love to know if it's the Manicongo mentioned on these maps that people remember, or if it's the more general title ("king of the congo"), and if there's any story behind this persistent folk knowledge. Wikipedia is thin on details, perhaps some Brazilian HN members can chime in here?

peanut_worm 4y ago
I think its just a title referring to whoever was the current king of Kongo
dougk 4y ago
It was the title meaning "king of Kongo". This wikipedia article has a detailed list of the Mwenekongo (Manicongo): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Kongo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Kongo

bnralt 4y ago

Interesting that the only king they can identify is Mansa Musa, and that he keeps popping up on the maps. Given how poorly documented Mansa Musa's reign was, and that the main sources are a small number of Muslim accounts of his Hajj written by people who weren't there when it happened, it seems that to Europeans he was a quasi-legendary and prototypical African king (perhaps similar to the completely legendary Prestor John). Though I suppose Mansa Musa is held in similar regard today. He's usually the first medieval African ruler I see people bring up, and they often repeat the poorly sourced legend of him being the richest person in history as if it were fact (even this article repeats it).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
md_ 4y ago
What’s your issue with the “richest person in history” claim? I was just reading “Fistful of Shells”, which is written by a reasonably serious historian. He repeats this claim, but sources it to this somewhat silly Time Magazine article: https://money.com/the-10-richest-people-of-all-time-2/ https://money.com/the-10-richest-people-of-all-time-2/. That article in turn puts forth a surprisingly thoughtful methodology: https://money.com/richest-people-of-all-time-methodology/ https://money.com/richest-people-of-all-time-methodology/. Obviously these comparisons are of limited value, as the methodology link above bothers to point out, but I don’t think it’s crazy—insofar as even stating “wealthiest person of all time” is meaningful, Mansa Musa looks to be a credible candidate.
- iso1631 4y ago
  > insofar as even stating “wealthiest person of all time” is meaningful Quite, how can you compare Alexander to Musa to Montezuma to Rockerfeller to Bezos to Putin? Wealth itself is pretty meaningless once you get to a certain level of course. Who's wealthier, Bezos or Musk? Does it matter? Would you rather be Mansa Musa or someone of median wealth and income in say New Zealand in the 21st century?
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    > Would you rather be Mansa Musa or someone of median wealth and income in say New Zealand in the 21st century? This is probably a more interesting quest than you suspect. It turns on your preferences around material comforts vs. you love of control and power.
  - Amezarak 4y ago
    Depending on the specific locale and period in history, there's a lot of people who were likely happier and meaningfully freer than people in 21st century New Zealand and could have expected to live just as long. Modern people are generally very physically and mentally unhealthy, and most of us work now work in conditions that older peoples would have considered unfree (ie my employment depends on the whims of someone else and my labor primarily benefits them.) I go back and forth as to whether having the Internet and air conditioning make up for it. I don't think I'd want to be Mansa Musa personally, but I think it's pretty likely he enjoyed his life a lot more than the average person today.

coffeeblack 4y ago

Too bad the text becomes inaccurate and political towards the end.

Veen 4y ago
It's somewhat odd that the article addresses slavery without mentioning that Mansa Musa owned many thousands of slaves and that slavery was prevalent in West and Central Africa during the Medieval, pre-Colonial period.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  Neither it mentions the extensive slave trade with North Africa and Arabia, only the gold trade. Also telling that my criticism in that regard was immediately downvoted.
  - truculent 4y ago
    I would suggest that he downvotes have as much to do with the lack of elaboration or supporting argument as the judgement itself.
    - coffeeblack 4y ago
      True. I found it so obvious that I didn’t see a reason to point it out explicitly.
- autopilot23 4y ago
  Slavery existed in every region of the world. This does not negate the destructive affects the Atlantic slave trade had on the continent, its kingdoms and resources. The article did not argue that "Slavery didn't exist under pre-Colonial rule". Side point, it's always funny to me how a lot of Westerns are hesitant to admit that African societies in Pre-Colonial times had history, science, culture, etc. just as any other society, but very eager to exclaim that they had slavery. It's also as if the existence of slavery does not require a certain type of social organization to have been already developed, which then they claim Africans didn't have.

bsaul 4y ago

notright 4y ago

stonlyb 4y ago

Related story of another African king and some of the erasure that enables the bias towards believing Africa had no pre-colonial wealth or tech. From the article: “When Europeans first came to Africa, they considered the architecture very disorganized and thus primitive. It never occurred to them that the Africans might have been using a form of mathematics that they hadn’t even discovered yet.” https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-cities-5-benin-city-edo-nigeria-mighty-medieval-capital-lost-without-trace https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-citi...

cuteboy19 4y ago
This is the second time a capital city named Edo got renamed to something else