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USA military and CIA had been present in Korea and Vietnam for years, with little fanfare, before those wars really got going. Their roles in Laos, Indonesia, I

USA military and CIA had been present in Korea and Vietnam for years, with little fanfare, before those wars really got going. Their roles in Laos, Indonesia, Iran, Nicaragua, etc. were never acknowledged. They are currently present though unacknowledged in dozens of nations, with the hopes of kicking off future wars for the profit of armaments manufacturers. USA "special forces" have been embedded with various more-or-less-official military units in Donbas for years, during which time UN estimates that 14,000 people died in violent military action including more than 3,000 civilians. Over the same time, various American and western European neo-nazis also found their way to Donbas, forming a convenient cover for the "operators". Americans have been in Ukraine for a long time, and that's not even to mention e.g. Victoria Nuland. This is a stupid argument anyway. Congress has committed to spending Russia's entire annual military budget to fill Ukraine with deadly weapons. That doesn't count the billions we already spent over the last 15 years. A president was impeached because he proposed (without actually doing) a temporary slowdown of the flow of American weapons to Ukraine. Our masters wanted a war, and now they have what they wanted. Very few mammalian Americans want a war, but after twenty years of stupid wars it's clear that the peace we want doesn't matter.

googlryas 4y ago
> Our masters wanted a war, and now they have what they wanted. How does sending weapons to a country encourage another country to attack it? Wouldn't it decrease the chances they attacked it - since it is fairly clear that the Ukraine could not invade Russia. > Very few mammalian Americans want a war As opposed to reptilian Americans? I'm just joking, I assume this is a typo but I can't figure out what it is meant to be. Do Americans actually want peace between the Ukraine and Russia(if it would just mean acceding to Russia's demands)? Granted I live in a fairly liberal area, but I see blue and yellow flags all over the place right now.
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  Just “Ukraine”, no “The” necessary or desired before it.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  How would we feel about Chinese weapons located in Tijuana? Even if they couldn't threaten a takeover of USA, they could still level Los Angeles with five minutes' notice. Eastern Ukraine similarly threatens Moscow. Americans where I live couldn't care less what happens in Ukraine. I have never seen a Ukrainian flag in the flesh, although they're on TV incessantly. If I drive around the area, I see USA flags, some state flags, a lot of confederate flags, and even a few "Brandon" flags. My own hope for Ukraine is peace at any cost. This isn't some glorious republic; it has consistently led Europe in the "most corrupt" lists and the history it chooses to emphasize features Nazi collaboration. Split it up into a part that can get along with Russia and a part that will eventually be absorbed by Poland. It will be a win for the West if the latter part contains Odessa.
trasz 4y ago
So it’s USA’s fault that Russia became a fascist country and decided to invade?
- jessaustin 4y ago
  I'll take the two questions in reverse order. Russia has invaded Ukraine in order to protect Russian interests. You could pick 100 Russian politicians at random, and every one of them would do as Putin is doing, if they were put in his position. The lives of the people of Russia are threatened by NATO armaments in Ukraine. Then-ambassador-to-Russia and current CIA director Burns said as much in 2008. [0] It's even more true since USA orchestrated the removal of the elected leader of Ukraine in 2014. [1] It's more true yet since USA has supported the Nazi brigades who have killed civilians in Donbas ever since, [2][3] while slowly inserting more and more weapons and "advisors". [4] If Ukraine had sought peace with Russia, as the majority of Ukrainians would have chosen to do (this was Zelensky's primary, if Wilsonian, campaign promise when he won election) [5], this invasion probably would not have happened. So, yes, there are people associated with USA who bear a large portion of blame for the invasion. I'm not sure if I would consider Russia "fascist". Certainly it is no longer communist. If it is fascist for the sake of discussion, we can blame Putin for that. And, indeed, we can certainly blame USA for Putin. We intervened on Yeltsin's behalf when Russia naturally would have gone in a more socialist direction. [6] The inevitable result of that was that his right-hand, Putin, soon took over. [7] I think at one time Putin would have considered a sort of peace with the West, if we had made that more practical than the alternative. Alas, we did not. [0] https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine [2] https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine-well-yes--but-its-a-long-story/ https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-... [3] https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13560.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13560.doc.htm [4] https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-could-soon-be-using-us-provided-unconventional-warfare-skills-2022-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-could-soon-be-using-... [5] https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/28/zelensky-celebrity-populist-pinochet-neoliberal/ https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/28/zelensky-celebrity-populi... [6] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has... [7] https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-s-a-solid-man-declassified-memos-offer-window-into-yeltsin-clinton-relationship/29462317.html https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-s-a-solid-man-declassified-mem...

googlryas 4y ago

> Our masters wanted a war, and now they have what they wanted. How does sending weapons to a country encourage another country to attack it? Wouldn't it decrease the chances they attacked it - since it is fairly clear that the Ukraine could not invade Russia. > Very few mammalian Americans want a war As opposed to reptilian Americans? I'm just joking, I assume this is a typo but I can't figure out what it is meant to be. Do Americans actually want peace between the Ukraine and Russia(if it would just mean acceding to Russia's demands)? Granted I live in a fairly liberal area, but I see blue and yellow flags all over the place right now.

mechanical_bear 4y ago
Just “Ukraine”, no “The” necessary or desired before it.
jessaustin 4y ago
How would we feel about Chinese weapons located in Tijuana? Even if they couldn't threaten a takeover of USA, they could still level Los Angeles with five minutes' notice. Eastern Ukraine similarly threatens Moscow. Americans where I live couldn't care less what happens in Ukraine. I have never seen a Ukrainian flag in the flesh, although they're on TV incessantly. If I drive around the area, I see USA flags, some state flags, a lot of confederate flags, and even a few "Brandon" flags. My own hope for Ukraine is peace at any cost. This isn't some glorious republic; it has consistently led Europe in the "most corrupt" lists and the history it chooses to emphasize features Nazi collaboration. Split it up into a part that can get along with Russia and a part that will eventually be absorbed by Poland. It will be a win for the West if the latter part contains Odessa.

trasz 4y ago

So it’s USA’s fault that Russia became a fascist country and decided to invade?

jessaustin 4y ago
I'll take the two questions in reverse order. Russia has invaded Ukraine in order to protect Russian interests. You could pick 100 Russian politicians at random, and every one of them would do as Putin is doing, if they were put in his position. The lives of the people of Russia are threatened by NATO armaments in Ukraine. Then-ambassador-to-Russia and current CIA director Burns said as much in 2008. [0] It's even more true since USA orchestrated the removal of the elected leader of Ukraine in 2014. [1] It's more true yet since USA has supported the Nazi brigades who have killed civilians in Donbas ever since, [2][3] while slowly inserting more and more weapons and "advisors". [4] If Ukraine had sought peace with Russia, as the majority of Ukrainians would have chosen to do (this was Zelensky's primary, if Wilsonian, campaign promise when he won election) [5], this invasion probably would not have happened. So, yes, there are people associated with USA who bear a large portion of blame for the invasion. I'm not sure if I would consider Russia "fascist". Certainly it is no longer communist. If it is fascist for the sake of discussion, we can blame Putin for that. And, indeed, we can certainly blame USA for Putin. We intervened on Yeltsin's behalf when Russia naturally would have gone in a more socialist direction. [6] The inevitable result of that was that his right-hand, Putin, soon took over. [7] I think at one time Putin would have considered a sort of peace with the West, if we had made that more practical than the alternative. Alas, we did not. [0] https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine [2] https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine-well-yes--but-its-a-long-story/ https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-... [3] https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13560.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13560.doc.htm [4] https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-could-soon-be-using-us-provided-unconventional-warfare-skills-2022-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-could-soon-be-using-... [5] https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/28/zelensky-celebrity-populist-pinochet-neoliberal/ https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/28/zelensky-celebrity-populi... [6] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has... [7] https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-s-a-solid-man-declassified-memos-offer-window-into-yeltsin-clinton-relationship/29462317.html https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-s-a-solid-man-declassified-mem...