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Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that. The accepte

by btilly 4y ago

Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that. The accepted definition is in Article 2 of https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then relocate over a million Ukrainians. Including over 250,000 children who will be raised with propaganda about not being Ukrainian. You may prefer mealymouthed substitutes for calling a spade a spade. But I condemn you for normalizing genocide by refusing to use its proper name.

mythrwy 4y ago
This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up. Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.
- btilly 4y ago
  My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition. The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has-openly-declared-its-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent: Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities. There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear. As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-disappearances-and-mass-deportations-of-ukrainian-citizens/ https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty. Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  You seem really defensive about this for some reason.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mythrwy 4y ago
    That seems to be a veiled accusation. Maybe you have heard about Russian bots on TV or something. Let me clarify my motives for you. I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it. It did not have to go down like this. A lot of lives could have been saved and suffering prevented. I don't control what Russia does (and I agree, they are looking for geo strategic and economic gain, not to "defend poor Russian speakers"), but anyway, I expect a whole let better from nominal liberal democracies. If you are going to be callous and continue with the murder and deception that has been the defining characteristic the Western order, at least be smart about it. But we have been both callous and stupid. I'm not happy about it. I'll be even less happy if it heats up even more killing millions. Also, I don't really like extreme bullshit propaganda. I try to see the truth and proclaim the truth best as I can understand it. Hopefully that clarifies my position.
    - idiotsecant 4y ago
      Your position is that the correct thing for a nominal liberal democracy to do is to encourage another nominal liberal democracy to give it's sovereign territory to a government that is, to put it charitably, ruled by executive decree? Because...they want it?
      - 4y ago

by btilly 4y ago

mythrwy 4y ago

This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up. Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.

btilly 4y ago
My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition. The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has-openly-declared-its-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent: Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities. There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear. As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-disappearances-and-mass-deportations-of-ukrainian-citizens/ https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty. Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?
idiotsecant 4y ago
You seem really defensive about this for some reason.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mythrwy 4y ago
  That seems to be a veiled accusation. Maybe you have heard about Russian bots on TV or something. Let me clarify my motives for you. I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it. It did not have to go down like this. A lot of lives could have been saved and suffering prevented. I don't control what Russia does (and I agree, they are looking for geo strategic and economic gain, not to "defend poor Russian speakers"), but anyway, I expect a whole let better from nominal liberal democracies. If you are going to be callous and continue with the murder and deception that has been the defining characteristic the Western order, at least be smart about it. But we have been both callous and stupid. I'm not happy about it. I'll be even less happy if it heats up even more killing millions. Also, I don't really like extreme bullshit propaganda. I try to see the truth and proclaim the truth best as I can understand it. Hopefully that clarifies my position.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Your position is that the correct thing for a nominal liberal democracy to do is to encourage another nominal liberal democracy to give it's sovereign territory to a government that is, to put it charitably, ruled by executive decree? Because...they want it?
    - 4y ago