4 ms·

What else? At what rates? Because I've certainly care for plenty of (by and large unvaccinated) people that have died from the disease, young (20s-30s, th

What else? At what rates? Because I've certainly care for plenty of (by and large unvaccinated) people that have died from the disease, young (20s-30s, thankfully none younger have died in my care) as well as old. Plenty of people in their 20s and 30s who died of, not with, covid? Were these people in long-term inpatient care / skilled nursing facilities? Or dependent on home health care aides and visiting nurses? Are you claiming to have personally provided care to large numbers of previously healthy twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings who unambiguously died of covid?

n8henrie 4y ago
> who died of, not with, covid? Continuing to return to this distinction is disingenuous and suggests bad faith. I have not seen a single case of a death pronouncement for COVID which has not unambiguously been from COVID. I'm not saying that shenanigans have never happened anywhere in this regard, but I'd guess that I've seen more people die OF COVID than any other single cause over the last few years, so it's hard for me to imagine that a handful of fraudulent cases would move the needle much. > Were these people in long-term inpatient care / skilled nursing facilities? Or dependent on home health care aides and visiting nurses? No, none of them. We don't have any of those nearby in my rural location. > Are you claiming to have personally provided care to large numbers of previously healthy twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings who unambiguously died of covid? You'd have to define large and "previously healthy." I'd speculate that the dozen or so deaths that I've seen in this category are "plenty" -- more than I've seen in this age group from any other cause in my short career, other than perhaps alcoholism. I also really don't understand why this is so difficult for people on HN to believe. HN is an interesting place for technical topics, but the threads on medicine truly make me shudder. My one are is subject matter expertise is the one most likely to earn downvotes for some reason. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > I have not seen a single case of a death pronouncement for COVID which has not unambiguously been from COVID. How about this one? https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report-07-18-2020 https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/man-who-died-in-motorcycl...
  - n8henrie 4y ago
    The conversation was regarding my personal experiences as a physician caring for people dying of COVID, so I was using "seen" literally, not as in "read" or "heard of." Do you think that news report "moves the needle?" Did you read this part in the article you posted? "it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state." Do you think that patients' right to privacy may make it difficult to know the details surrounding a death, leading to widespread, unfalsifiable, conspiratorial speculation?
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > The conversation was regarding my personal experiences as a physician caring for people dying of COVID, so I was using "seen" literally, not as in "read" or "heard of." Just because you've never seen something happen firsthand doesn't mean that it never happens, or even that it's particularly rare. For example, none of my computers have ever gotten ransomware, but I don't deny that ransomware is really common today. > Do you think that news report "moves the needle?" This feels like asking why you should bother voting, since one vote never really moves the needle by itself either. > Did you read this part in the article you posted? "it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state." Yes, and it makes my point even stronger. Even for the most egregious, indefensible false COVID deaths like this one, we can't confirmation that they've actually been corrected. That leads me to think there's no hope whatsoever that any of the false ones that aren't this blatantly obvious will ever be corrected. > Do you think that patients' right to privacy may make it difficult to know the details surrounding a death, leading to widespread, unfalsifiable, conspiratorial speculation? If we can't get details of the death, why should we default to the assumption that it really was because of COVID?
      - n8henrie 4y ago
        > Just because you've never seen something happen firsthand So are you arguing that, because I've never seen it, then it must be common? > I don't deny that ransomware is really common today. You'll need to be more precise for this to mean much of anything. I don't know a single person who has ever had a single personal computer affected by ransomware. Clearly ransomware must be a governmental conspiracy and/or the common flu. > This feels like asking why you should bother voting It wasn't intended to feel like that. It was intended to feel like asking whether you think one news report -- or even several individual news reports -- are meaningful evidence of widespread fraud in the setting of a very large denominator of deaths. > Yes, and it makes my point even stronger. No, it doesn't. It means your point may not be a point at all, and it seems like you have no evidence behind your speculation that this was ultimately counted as a COVID death. > If we can't get details of the death, why should we default to the assumption that it really was because of COVID? Do you really think that the details of an individual patient's medical record should be opened up to try (likely in vain) to satisfy the curiosity of some dude on HN -- who is likely so entrenched in his or her position that the results of the inquisition will be of little consequence regardless?
- briandon 4y ago
  I've lived through multiple covid waves in a large city where the demographics of the hospitalized cases, intensive care cases, and deaths have been conscientiously recorded and continuously made publicly available and the extreme age stratification in illness severity has always been clear and persistent. If you are claiming to have seen "plenty" of previously healthy 20-somethings and 30-somethings who've died of (and not with) covid and "plenty" means more than one or two of each group since Feb 2020 and you're not jet-setting back and forth across the country to attend specifically to exceedingly rare young previously-healthy patients seriously ill from covid in widely-separated locations whenever they pop up, I'm sorry but I don't believe you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - n8henrie 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you're reading into my words that makes you think I disagree about a large age stratification. I live and provide emergency care in rural place that several times was reported to have the worst rates and case fatality rates in the country. Virtually every patient I see and community member I know had at least one first-degree family member die OF COVID, and many more if you include cousins / aunts / uncles. In contrast, my parents and family live in a place not far away that had something like 5% of the case-fatality rate we experienced here. I don't think my parents know a single person who personally died of COVID, whereas I had 6? or so coworkers (not other physicians -- several hospital housekeepers sadly) pass away. I can see quite clearly why there is so much controversy about this disease (or at least one of the reasons) -- because it's just affected different populations very differently. We act as if each other is talking about an entirely different disease, and we may as well be. > I'm sorry but I don't believe you. Then I suppose it's not worth having further conversation. Best of luck to you.

n8henrie 4y ago

> who died of, not with, covid? Continuing to return to this distinction is disingenuous and suggests bad faith. I have not seen a single case of a death pronouncement for COVID which has not unambiguously been from COVID. I'm not saying that shenanigans have never happened anywhere in this regard, but I'd guess that I've seen more people die OF COVID than any other single cause over the last few years, so it's hard for me to imagine that a handful of fraudulent cases would move the needle much. > Were these people in long-term inpatient care / skilled nursing facilities? Or dependent on home health care aides and visiting nurses? No, none of them. We don't have any of those nearby in my rural location. > Are you claiming to have personally provided care to large numbers of previously healthy twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings who unambiguously died of covid? You'd have to define large and "previously healthy." I'd speculate that the dozen or so deaths that I've seen in this category are "plenty" -- more than I've seen in this age group from any other cause in my short career, other than perhaps alcoholism. I also really don't understand why this is so difficult for people on HN to believe. HN is an interesting place for technical topics, but the threads on medicine truly make me shudder. My one are is subject matter expertise is the one most likely to earn downvotes for some reason. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

josephcsible 4y ago
> I have not seen a single case of a death pronouncement for COVID which has not unambiguously been from COVID. How about this one? https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report-07-18-2020 https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/man-who-died-in-motorcycl...
- n8henrie 4y ago
  The conversation was regarding my personal experiences as a physician caring for people dying of COVID, so I was using "seen" literally, not as in "read" or "heard of." Do you think that news report "moves the needle?" Did you read this part in the article you posted? "it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state." Do you think that patients' right to privacy may make it difficult to know the details surrounding a death, leading to widespread, unfalsifiable, conspiratorial speculation?
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > The conversation was regarding my personal experiences as a physician caring for people dying of COVID, so I was using "seen" literally, not as in "read" or "heard of." Just because you've never seen something happen firsthand doesn't mean that it never happens, or even that it's particularly rare. For example, none of my computers have ever gotten ransomware, but I don't deny that ransomware is really common today. > Do you think that news report "moves the needle?" This feels like asking why you should bother voting, since one vote never really moves the needle by itself either. > Did you read this part in the article you posted? "it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state." Yes, and it makes my point even stronger. Even for the most egregious, indefensible false COVID deaths like this one, we can't confirmation that they've actually been corrected. That leads me to think there's no hope whatsoever that any of the false ones that aren't this blatantly obvious will ever be corrected. > Do you think that patients' right to privacy may make it difficult to know the details surrounding a death, leading to widespread, unfalsifiable, conspiratorial speculation? If we can't get details of the death, why should we default to the assumption that it really was because of COVID?
    - n8henrie 4y ago
      > Just because you've never seen something happen firsthand So are you arguing that, because I've never seen it, then it must be common? > I don't deny that ransomware is really common today. You'll need to be more precise for this to mean much of anything. I don't know a single person who has ever had a single personal computer affected by ransomware. Clearly ransomware must be a governmental conspiracy and/or the common flu. > This feels like asking why you should bother voting It wasn't intended to feel like that. It was intended to feel like asking whether you think one news report -- or even several individual news reports -- are meaningful evidence of widespread fraud in the setting of a very large denominator of deaths. > Yes, and it makes my point even stronger. No, it doesn't. It means your point may not be a point at all, and it seems like you have no evidence behind your speculation that this was ultimately counted as a COVID death. > If we can't get details of the death, why should we default to the assumption that it really was because of COVID? Do you really think that the details of an individual patient's medical record should be opened up to try (likely in vain) to satisfy the curiosity of some dude on HN -- who is likely so entrenched in his or her position that the results of the inquisition will be of little consequence regardless?
briandon 4y ago
I've lived through multiple covid waves in a large city where the demographics of the hospitalized cases, intensive care cases, and deaths have been conscientiously recorded and continuously made publicly available and the extreme age stratification in illness severity has always been clear and persistent. If you are claiming to have seen "plenty" of previously healthy 20-somethings and 30-somethings who've died of (and not with) covid and "plenty" means more than one or two of each group since Feb 2020 and you're not jet-setting back and forth across the country to attend specifically to exceedingly rare young previously-healthy patients seriously ill from covid in widely-separated locations whenever they pop up, I'm sorry but I don't believe you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- n8henrie 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you're reading into my words that makes you think I disagree about a large age stratification. I live and provide emergency care in rural place that several times was reported to have the worst rates and case fatality rates in the country. Virtually every patient I see and community member I know had at least one first-degree family member die OF COVID, and many more if you include cousins / aunts / uncles. In contrast, my parents and family live in a place not far away that had something like 5% of the case-fatality rate we experienced here. I don't think my parents know a single person who personally died of COVID, whereas I had 6? or so coworkers (not other physicians -- several hospital housekeepers sadly) pass away. I can see quite clearly why there is so much controversy about this disease (or at least one of the reasons) -- because it's just affected different populations very differently. We act as if each other is talking about an entirely different disease, and we may as well be. > I'm sorry but I don't believe you. Then I suppose it's not worth having further conversation. Best of luck to you.