5 ms·

I don't see the goal being extermination at all. If that were the case the tactics used would be much different. Control, integration, subjugation, colonizatio

I don't see the goal being extermination at all. If that were the case the tactics used would be much different. Control, integration, subjugation, colonization, there are a lot of other words that are more fitting without the "genocide" hyperbole.

ceejayoz 4y ago
You don't have to exterminate the population (although Russia's been there, done that in Ukraine) to exterminate the country as a going concern, or the national identity.
alangibson 4y ago
Check out Russian state TV. They've been very explicit in saying they don't think 'Ukraine', Ukranians or even Ukranian language actually exists.
Scarblac 4y ago
They killed most of the population of Mariupol that wasn't able to flee, shell civilians continuously, have deported millions of Ukrainians to Russia so far where children are taken apart from their parents and the parents are taken to "filtration camps" where many are shot and the rest relocated to the Far East. On top of the rhetoric that Ukrainians as a people shouldn't exist. There is no doubt that it is genocide and termination.
btilly 4y ago
Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that. The accepted definition is in Article 2 of https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then relocate over a million Ukrainians. Including over 250,000 children who will be raised with propaganda about not being Ukrainian. You may prefer mealymouthed substitutes for calling a spade a spade. But I condemn you for normalizing genocide by refusing to use its proper name.
- mythrwy 4y ago
  This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up. Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.
  - btilly 4y ago
    My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition. The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has-openly-declared-its-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent: Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities. There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear. As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-disappearances-and-mass-deportations-of-ukrainian-citizens/ https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty. Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    You seem really defensive about this for some reason.
    - deleted 4y ago
_ph_ 4y ago
The Russians pretty much killed a lot of the population of the occupied territories, which hadn't fled in time. A lot of the rest has been abducted to Russia, possibly Siberia.
- mythrwy 4y ago
  No they haven't. That's untrue.
- HKH2 4y ago
  In the Donbas? Proof?
excieve 4y ago
They're actually quite explicit in what the goal is, at least in propaganda towards the internal audience[0]. If one does equate a Ukrainian to a "nazi" that must be exterminated, burns this into the minds for years, builds a chauvinistic version of history to frame it into then the rest comes out naturally — don't even need an order. The behaviour of the Russian army towards the non-combatants so far has been aligned to what you could expect of this concept — mass murder, rape as a weapon, "filtration" camps, forced deportations, burnt ground tactics. These are not singular cases, it's the pattern everywhere the Russian army is or has been active. It's not even the first attempt in the history — the last one was less than a century ago. [0]: https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338 https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338
- mythrwy 4y ago
  That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it. "mass rape, mass murder etc". Look, I don't think the Russians are innocent in this at all. Obviously they have economic incentive and don't mind killing some folks to get what they are after. They don't want to kill everyone though or they would act very differently. It's not genocide. Very simple. Even by a stretch of the word to include removing Nazi elements from the armed services.
  - nisa 4y ago
    Unfortunately it's not bullshit. I wish it was - read the summary of the OSCE report: https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-report-on-ukraine/ https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-repo... It's even worse.
    - mythrwy 4y ago
      Yep. The Russians are posting the same kind of thing for their populations to consume. I fully believe neither. Here is what I do know. As of last week less then 5,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed so far in the campaign. Contrast that with the US did during Iraq, or even in Raqqa. Was that genocide? No, it was just we didn't care. Which is pretty disturbing especially now as we try to proclaim moral high ground and talk about atrocities. This is not genocide either and false flags and exaggerations abound on all sides. Edit: responding to the comment below because I'm obviously on a time out at this point: `As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter` This is a guy, with a strategic national interest, who addressed the org you are talking about with some claims. Not an series of independently verified facts. Have bad things happened? Yes. It's a war. Have Russian soldiers done some bad things? Almost certainly. Is there widespread or systemic murder of civilians and rape by Russian troops? No, that is not happening. And it makes sense as it would be counterproductive to Russia's aims. In short. Unadulterated bullshit.
Spooky23 4y ago
Genocide doesn’t require camps. I’m not sure why these distinctions are relevant. In my mind, if an army is indiscriminately bombing and shelling my city, it sure feels like a genocidal act.
moistly 4y ago
I suggest that instead of using your throwaway account to post objectively untrue bullshit, you instead not post at all. HN does not benefit when you pull stupid stunts like this. Be a better person.

ceejayoz 4y ago

You don't have to exterminate the population (although Russia's been there, done that in Ukraine) to exterminate the country as a going concern, or the national identity.

alangibson 4y ago

Check out Russian state TV. They've been very explicit in saying they don't think 'Ukraine', Ukranians or even Ukranian language actually exists.

Scarblac 4y ago

They killed most of the population of Mariupol that wasn't able to flee, shell civilians continuously, have deported millions of Ukrainians to Russia so far where children are taken apart from their parents and the parents are taken to "filtration camps" where many are shot and the rest relocated to the Far East. On top of the rhetoric that Ukrainians as a people shouldn't exist. There is no doubt that it is genocide and termination.

btilly 4y ago

Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that. The accepted definition is in Article 2 of https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then relocate over a million Ukrainians. Including over 250,000 children who will be raised with propaganda about not being Ukrainian. You may prefer mealymouthed substitutes for calling a spade a spade. But I condemn you for normalizing genocide by refusing to use its proper name.

mythrwy 4y ago
This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up. Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.
- btilly 4y ago
  My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition. The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has-openly-declared-its-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent: Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities. There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear. As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-disappearances-and-mass-deportations-of-ukrainian-citizens/ https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty. Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  You seem really defensive about this for some reason.
  - deleted 4y ago

_ph_ 4y ago

The Russians pretty much killed a lot of the population of the occupied territories, which hadn't fled in time. A lot of the rest has been abducted to Russia, possibly Siberia.

mythrwy 4y ago
No they haven't. That's untrue.
HKH2 4y ago
In the Donbas? Proof?

excieve 4y ago

They're actually quite explicit in what the goal is, at least in propaganda towards the internal audience[0]. If one does equate a Ukrainian to a "nazi" that must be exterminated, burns this into the minds for years, builds a chauvinistic version of history to frame it into then the rest comes out naturally — don't even need an order. The behaviour of the Russian army towards the non-combatants so far has been aligned to what you could expect of this concept — mass murder, rape as a weapon, "filtration" camps, forced deportations, burnt ground tactics. These are not singular cases, it's the pattern everywhere the Russian army is or has been active. It's not even the first attempt in the history — the last one was less than a century ago. [0]: https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338 https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338

mythrwy 4y ago
That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it. "mass rape, mass murder etc". Look, I don't think the Russians are innocent in this at all. Obviously they have economic incentive and don't mind killing some folks to get what they are after. They don't want to kill everyone though or they would act very differently. It's not genocide. Very simple. Even by a stretch of the word to include removing Nazi elements from the armed services.
- nisa 4y ago
  Unfortunately it's not bullshit. I wish it was - read the summary of the OSCE report: https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-report-on-ukraine/ https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-repo... It's even worse.
  - mythrwy 4y ago
    Yep. The Russians are posting the same kind of thing for their populations to consume. I fully believe neither. Here is what I do know. As of last week less then 5,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed so far in the campaign. Contrast that with the US did during Iraq, or even in Raqqa. Was that genocide? No, it was just we didn't care. Which is pretty disturbing especially now as we try to proclaim moral high ground and talk about atrocities. This is not genocide either and false flags and exaggerations abound on all sides. Edit: responding to the comment below because I'm obviously on a time out at this point: `As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter` This is a guy, with a strategic national interest, who addressed the org you are talking about with some claims. Not an series of independently verified facts. Have bad things happened? Yes. It's a war. Have Russian soldiers done some bad things? Almost certainly. Is there widespread or systemic murder of civilians and rape by Russian troops? No, that is not happening. And it makes sense as it would be counterproductive to Russia's aims. In short. Unadulterated bullshit.

Spooky23 4y ago

Genocide doesn’t require camps. I’m not sure why these distinctions are relevant. In my mind, if an army is indiscriminately bombing and shelling my city, it sure feels like a genocidal act.

moistly 4y ago

I suggest that instead of using your throwaway account to post objectively untrue bullshit, you instead not post at all. HN does not benefit when you pull stupid stunts like this. Be a better person.