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Serious question here - I swear I'm not trolling and I've been asking myself this same question...' Would you be fine with it if you were on the margin? I hav

Serious question here - I swear I'm not trolling and I've been asking myself this same question...' Would you be fine with it if you were on the margin? I have this same attitude about inflation in the US and rising interest rates. Good - we need to get the situation under control. But I'm not living on the margin. It affects me, but not really. I'll be fine. So I don't really have any skin in the game here. Not yet.

nisa 4y ago
I am on the margin. So is my family. I'm getting by fine at the moment but I'm just a little above the poverty line but have no reserves. I have no choice anyway. I just hope that if I can't pay the bills there will be a moratorium to cut energy for a while. I'm trying to buildup a reserve for a few months exactly for that situation. It's also not clear when the price hikes will hit the consumers so I hope I have a few months to set aside money for this.
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  A large-scale theme in humanity that usually goes unnoticed is how much more the poor are willing accept privations and duties in the name of patriotism. They are also more charitable on a per-cent basis, and certainly on a marginal per-cent basis.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    >the poor are willing accept privations and duties in the name of patriotism Not everyone agrees on what patriotism means or what actions are patriotic or good for the nation. Tolerating a few abstract points off your GDP because people you don't like voted your country out of the EU easy enough so people put up with it. You are not going to get a nation to put up with serious hardship like what the energy situation is shaping up to do unless everyone is on the same page about what the end goal is.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    In this case it's not just patriotism and noble ideas but sheer realism. The civilized world needs to do everything to weaken Russia to minimize the chances of them expanding the war. We got totally dependent on cheap Russian gas in spite of warnings and now is the price to pay. There is really no alternative. I mean yes, we can lift sanctions and let Russia build advanced rockets with our chips, but is this really the future we want to build?
jonah 4y ago
Long-term vs. short-term thinking. Would you rather be colder in the winter for a couple years or live in a warzone and have your family killed and culture destroyed?
- hans1729 4y ago
  This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given? 1. Party Z invades Country U. 2. Continent C denounces the invasion of U and sanctions Z. 3. Z retaliates against C. Does an act of retaliation (weaponizing Gas) from Z towards C count a declaration of war? Because if not, who exactly did Russia declare war on? Europe is many things, most prominently a continent and an idea. Was Germany declared war on? If not, is it reasonable to assume that Germany will be declared war on, and if so, which escalations from which involved party would lead to that? (As always, I don't have strong opinions, just trying to make up my mind on what to expect/how to read the situation)
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given? Not before first weakening and fracturing NATO. Brexit split England off the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...). Trump expressed strong doubts about staying in NATO (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden...) and was at the very least sympathetic towards Putin at times (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812). These are opening salvos.
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    I see cutting off the EU's has supply as very similar to war, and they started doing that last November. So they will again, the moment the EU doesn't do exactly what Russia says.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
jahnu 4y ago
I think this is a great and fair question. It’s all fun and games until our own life is impacted. I have a family and am thinking about this carefully as I live a good middle class life in Austria and we are similarly impacted wrt gas. At the moment my position is that I would be prepared to sacrifice a heck of a lot in order to not give in to a murderous regime. I would be prepared to drastically drop my standard of living for several years. My thinking is that in comparison to direct involvement in a hot war that would be peanuts. Now, ask me again next year once I’ve gone through a cold cold winter and whatever other luxuries I’m missing out on. I hope I can live up to my ideals. I have met refugees from Ukraine and they need us to step up so they can one day go home in peace.
kennywinker 4y ago
I don’t understand how any country could ask people on the margin to shoulder the worst effects of a burden that effects everyone, without offering support. During the early part of covid, we offered hazard pay for “front line workers”, and monthly support cheques for people who’s jobs were put on hold to keep people safe (restaurants, event venues, performers, etc). That didn’t last long, but it’s clearly the kind of mindset we need to tackle climate transitions - i.e. pay oil field workers to retrain for solar and wind, help support people who can’t afford to get off fracked methane gas heating yet. Etc.
Sholmesy 4y ago
This is a genuine question to ask for a lot of policy decisions that directly affect the person asked. I think it's fair to say "no I wouldn't be fine with it if I were on the margin", but still think it's a good idea. What is good for the individual, may be bad for society in the long term. Which is a really callus and harsh position to take.
XorNot 4y ago
The current problem in Germany is/was their political class is slow-walking aid to Ukraine under the general idea that the war will end and "normal relations" with Russia will mean that the ridiculous dependence on foreign gas supplies can be continued. The alternative question, the one which should be being handled right now though is what % of people need support, and how do you help without worsening the problem? How quickly can you install solar, batteries and air-sourced heat pumps? What financing scheme gets the best bang for buck while helping those least able to afford the market fluctuation? The question isn't "would you be fine with it at the margin?" - because the only reason to ask it is to sidle up to "maybe we should appease the nazis/just kind of not think about the genocide" under the auspices of "well there was no other choice so it's not really an immoral one". The much better question is one of political accountability: why was the country made so vulnerable to this situation? Why were the vulnerable in the country made the most susceptible to this situation? Why were the alternatives ignored? And why is bold action not being taken now to fix this?
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Yes, because I'd know that if I was adversely affected, it was an explicit choice of the politicians running my country to force me to bear the cost, and I'd be angry at them, not anyone else. As for inflation control, in mamy ways the whole point of that is to punish those at the margin, who might otherwise gain at the expense of those with large assets. If you're about to say, what about the poor pensioners on a fixed income, see my first paragraph.

nisa 4y ago

I am on the margin. So is my family. I'm getting by fine at the moment but I'm just a little above the poverty line but have no reserves. I have no choice anyway. I just hope that if I can't pay the bills there will be a moratorium to cut energy for a while. I'm trying to buildup a reserve for a few months exactly for that situation. It's also not clear when the price hikes will hit the consumers so I hope I have a few months to set aside money for this.

killjoywashere 4y ago
A large-scale theme in humanity that usually goes unnoticed is how much more the poor are willing accept privations and duties in the name of patriotism. They are also more charitable on a per-cent basis, and certainly on a marginal per-cent basis.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >the poor are willing accept privations and duties in the name of patriotism Not everyone agrees on what patriotism means or what actions are patriotic or good for the nation. Tolerating a few abstract points off your GDP because people you don't like voted your country out of the EU easy enough so people put up with it. You are not going to get a nation to put up with serious hardship like what the energy situation is shaping up to do unless everyone is on the same page about what the end goal is.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  In this case it's not just patriotism and noble ideas but sheer realism. The civilized world needs to do everything to weaken Russia to minimize the chances of them expanding the war. We got totally dependent on cheap Russian gas in spite of warnings and now is the price to pay. There is really no alternative. I mean yes, we can lift sanctions and let Russia build advanced rockets with our chips, but is this really the future we want to build?

jonah 4y ago

Long-term vs. short-term thinking. Would you rather be colder in the winter for a couple years or live in a warzone and have your family killed and culture destroyed?

hans1729 4y ago
This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given? 1. Party Z invades Country U. 2. Continent C denounces the invasion of U and sanctions Z. 3. Z retaliates against C. Does an act of retaliation (weaponizing Gas) from Z towards C count a declaration of war? Because if not, who exactly did Russia declare war on? Europe is many things, most prominently a continent and an idea. Was Germany declared war on? If not, is it reasonable to assume that Germany will be declared war on, and if so, which escalations from which involved party would lead to that? (As always, I don't have strong opinions, just trying to make up my mind on what to expect/how to read the situation)
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given? Not before first weakening and fracturing NATO. Brexit split England off the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...). Trump expressed strong doubts about staying in NATO (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden...) and was at the very least sympathetic towards Putin at times (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812). These are opening salvos.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  I see cutting off the EU's has supply as very similar to war, and they started doing that last November. So they will again, the moment the EU doesn't do exactly what Russia says.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago

jahnu 4y ago

I think this is a great and fair question. It’s all fun and games until our own life is impacted. I have a family and am thinking about this carefully as I live a good middle class life in Austria and we are similarly impacted wrt gas. At the moment my position is that I would be prepared to sacrifice a heck of a lot in order to not give in to a murderous regime. I would be prepared to drastically drop my standard of living for several years. My thinking is that in comparison to direct involvement in a hot war that would be peanuts. Now, ask me again next year once I’ve gone through a cold cold winter and whatever other luxuries I’m missing out on. I hope I can live up to my ideals. I have met refugees from Ukraine and they need us to step up so they can one day go home in peace.

kennywinker 4y ago

I don’t understand how any country could ask people on the margin to shoulder the worst effects of a burden that effects everyone, without offering support. During the early part of covid, we offered hazard pay for “front line workers”, and monthly support cheques for people who’s jobs were put on hold to keep people safe (restaurants, event venues, performers, etc). That didn’t last long, but it’s clearly the kind of mindset we need to tackle climate transitions - i.e. pay oil field workers to retrain for solar and wind, help support people who can’t afford to get off fracked methane gas heating yet. Etc.

Sholmesy 4y ago

This is a genuine question to ask for a lot of policy decisions that directly affect the person asked. I think it's fair to say "no I wouldn't be fine with it if I were on the margin", but still think it's a good idea. What is good for the individual, may be bad for society in the long term. Which is a really callus and harsh position to take.

XorNot 4y ago

The current problem in Germany is/was their political class is slow-walking aid to Ukraine under the general idea that the war will end and "normal relations" with Russia will mean that the ridiculous dependence on foreign gas supplies can be continued. The alternative question, the one which should be being handled right now though is what % of people need support, and how do you help without worsening the problem? How quickly can you install solar, batteries and air-sourced heat pumps? What financing scheme gets the best bang for buck while helping those least able to afford the market fluctuation? The question isn't "would you be fine with it at the margin?" - because the only reason to ask it is to sidle up to "maybe we should appease the nazis/just kind of not think about the genocide" under the auspices of "well there was no other choice so it's not really an immoral one". The much better question is one of political accountability: why was the country made so vulnerable to this situation? Why were the vulnerable in the country made the most susceptible to this situation? Why were the alternatives ignored? And why is bold action not being taken now to fix this?

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Yes, because I'd know that if I was adversely affected, it was an explicit choice of the politicians running my country to force me to bear the cost, and I'd be angry at them, not anyone else. As for inflation control, in mamy ways the whole point of that is to punish those at the margin, who might otherwise gain at the expense of those with large assets. If you're about to say, what about the poor pensioners on a fixed income, see my first paragraph.