4 ms·

Solution #1 - we already tried that, we gave Putin Crimea in 2014, everything was chill for 7-8 years and now we have this mess. If we give him Donetsk and Luh

Solution #1 - we already tried that, we gave Putin Crimea in 2014, everything was chill for 7-8 years and now we have this mess. If we give him Donetsk and Luhansk, he'll just be back for more + Moldova in 5-6 years.

leereeves 4y ago
In 5-6 years, Europe should be able to free themselves of Russian energy and build a military capable of standing up to Russia. (Ukraine is almost managing the latter on their own.)
- rebuilder 4y ago
  This assumes that, if allowed to win in Ukraine, Russia would return to normal gas and oil deliveries. I’m not sure there is a way back to regular trade now, Russia has essentially, if not literally, declared war on much more than just Ukraine.
- nawitus 4y ago
  Europe already has such a military.
jonathan-adly 4y ago
Yea, Crimea would have been the perfect time to realize that depending on a rational, happy Russia for gas is a bad idea. Don't worry though, America is repeating the same mistakes with China. So, its not just Europe.
- bilbo0s 4y ago
  We don't depend on China for energy.
  - jonathan-adly 4y ago
    But we depend on them for everything else. I am deeply embedded in the drug supply chain - we would run out of live-savings drugs in 3-6 months of China closed shop. (and drugs are not fundamentally different from any low-margin manufacturing critical item)
    - refurb 4y ago
      No. India produces far more generic drugs than China and the most expensive drugs are made in the US, Europe, Taiwan, Singapore.
wsc981 4y ago
- bonzini 4y ago
  And Russia had poisoned a West-friendly candidate even before and generally meddled with Ukrainian elections. Let's not make this look like it was started by Ukraine...
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Democracy in Ukraine is fucked, with many politicians being backed by outside powers and very little representations. There have been tons of parliamentary MPs expelled in the last 6 months and complete bans on opposition parties. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspen...
    - wsc981 4y ago
      Very much true. In this leaked audio-fragment Biden is quite literally threatening Poroshenko (a very corrupt individual himself and previous Ukraine president) because he doesn’t want Trump looking into situation in Ukraine during Trumps presidency. https://twitter.com/JustFollowingP3/status/1547226876632072196?s=20&t=KhmhUIGCey4hTfnr7jktUQ https://twitter.com/JustFollowingP3/status/15472268766320721... Maybe Joe Biden doesn’t want Trump to know about Hunter Biden’s business dealings there, but I can only guess …
- jonathan-adly 4y ago
  Here is a propaganda tip for ya - simple, dumb ideas work great in Facebook and Twitter. Hacker News is a little different. Just say that Russia is no different than China or the USA. It is reasonable for them to have their own monroe doctrine over former USSR nation-states.
- richiebful1 4y ago
  Terrorizing in what sense? I'm pretty fluent in the region, and read Ukrainian and Russian news, but I've never seen any evidence beyond the laws promoting Ukrainian language. That's pretty far from terror imo
oxff 4y ago
How are you in charge of not giving or giving some East European watering holes to Russia? Can you establish the set of facts here. I can tell that a real NATO deployment to D & L would dramatically change the strategic goal setting of Russia, materially alter the outcome, but not sanctions if that's what you are suggesting as deciding the fate of these places.
- akmarinov 4y ago
  Me as in western countries. If the west cuts all support for Ukraine - how long would they last? If Germany starts freezing in the winter with no Russian gas, you’ll start hearing about “bringing about peace” real quick.

leereeves 4y ago

In 5-6 years, Europe should be able to free themselves of Russian energy and build a military capable of standing up to Russia. (Ukraine is almost managing the latter on their own.)

rebuilder 4y ago
This assumes that, if allowed to win in Ukraine, Russia would return to normal gas and oil deliveries. I’m not sure there is a way back to regular trade now, Russia has essentially, if not literally, declared war on much more than just Ukraine.
nawitus 4y ago
Europe already has such a military.

jonathan-adly 4y ago

Yea, Crimea would have been the perfect time to realize that depending on a rational, happy Russia for gas is a bad idea. Don't worry though, America is repeating the same mistakes with China. So, its not just Europe.

bilbo0s 4y ago
We don't depend on China for energy.
- jonathan-adly 4y ago
  But we depend on them for everything else. I am deeply embedded in the drug supply chain - we would run out of live-savings drugs in 3-6 months of China closed shop. (and drugs are not fundamentally different from any low-margin manufacturing critical item)
  - refurb 4y ago
    No. India produces far more generic drugs than China and the most expensive drugs are made in the US, Europe, Taiwan, Singapore.

wsc981 4y ago

bonzini 4y ago
And Russia had poisoned a West-friendly candidate even before and generally meddled with Ukrainian elections. Let's not make this look like it was started by Ukraine...
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Democracy in Ukraine is fucked, with many politicians being backed by outside powers and very little representations. There have been tons of parliamentary MPs expelled in the last 6 months and complete bans on opposition parties. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspen...
  - wsc981 4y ago
    Very much true. In this leaked audio-fragment Biden is quite literally threatening Poroshenko (a very corrupt individual himself and previous Ukraine president) because he doesn’t want Trump looking into situation in Ukraine during Trumps presidency. https://twitter.com/JustFollowingP3/status/1547226876632072196?s=20&t=KhmhUIGCey4hTfnr7jktUQ https://twitter.com/JustFollowingP3/status/15472268766320721... Maybe Joe Biden doesn’t want Trump to know about Hunter Biden’s business dealings there, but I can only guess …
jonathan-adly 4y ago
Here is a propaganda tip for ya - simple, dumb ideas work great in Facebook and Twitter. Hacker News is a little different. Just say that Russia is no different than China or the USA. It is reasonable for them to have their own monroe doctrine over former USSR nation-states.
richiebful1 4y ago
Terrorizing in what sense? I'm pretty fluent in the region, and read Ukrainian and Russian news, but I've never seen any evidence beyond the laws promoting Ukrainian language. That's pretty far from terror imo

oxff 4y ago

How are you in charge of not giving or giving some East European watering holes to Russia? Can you establish the set of facts here. I can tell that a real NATO deployment to D & L would dramatically change the strategic goal setting of Russia, materially alter the outcome, but not sanctions if that's what you are suggesting as deciding the fate of these places.

akmarinov 4y ago
Me as in western countries. If the west cuts all support for Ukraine - how long would they last? If Germany starts freezing in the winter with no Russian gas, you’ll start hearing about “bringing about peace” real quick.