4 ms·

There's a really interesting study they did with pigs. They fed pigs four different diets that had the same amount of calories, but varying ratios of n3/n6 fat

by dilap 4y ago

There's a really interesting study they did with pigs. They fed pigs four different diets that had the same amount of calories, but varying ratios of n3/n6 fats. The pigs with high n6/n3 ratio ended up much fatter and less muscular than the pigs eating a 1-1 ratio diet. It's a very neat demonstration that "all that matters is calories" is not true; your metabolism, and thus how you use the calories, is influenced by the kinds of calories you are eating. Well, at least if you are a pig. But it seems likely the same holds true in humans, though AFAIK no one has yet tried to do a similar controlled trial in humans. But there's lots of assocational evidence that lines up in the same direction -- e.g., in America we've been getting fatter pretty much in-lock step with increasing consumption of n6 fats & there is a correlation between body-fat composition (which itself follows fat composition from the diet) and obesity. So, in the light of the above, my #1 weight loss tip is: eat fewer n6 fats. (In practice, this means avoiding most prepared processed foodes and being extremely selective if eating out (since restaurants tend to go crazy using vegetable oil as a cooking fat, which is super high in n6 fats).) The pigs study: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/n6n3-pufa-ratio-is-involved-in-regulating-lipid-metabolism-and-inflammation-in-pigs/5EA34EC0D6F177F4C742F409DED4DBA5# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...

wowokay 4y ago
That’s very interesting. I’m curious how it could relate to humans. Not to say it can’t be 1:1, but there are mental aspects that can effect human hunger and I’d be interested in research around that. For example someone who eats a lot but falls into a depression might slow eating considerably (or eat more depending on the person) it’s not to far fetched to consider the possibility of mind state altering medication that could stimulate the brain causing less or more hungry.
- dilap 4y ago
  Absolutely, the mental aspects of hunger are huge, as anyone who has ever had the munchies (super hungry) or taken adderall (super not hungry) can attest. In fact, n6 fats may also promote hunger, via increasing endocannabinoid production. Here's a study I just found in mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24081493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24081493/ Again just an animal model, but certainly suggestive...
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    Omega 3 also increases endocannabinoids, but a different form: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685292/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685292/ AEA and 2-AG are synthesized from omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA), arachidonic acid (AA), and are hydrolyzed by fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH) and monoacylglycerol lipase (MAGL), Herein, we review the discovery and physiological role of omega-3 eCBs that are derived from DHA and EPA (Figure 1A). We illustrate that the derivatization of carboxylic acid end of the omega-3 fatty acid with ethanolamide, glycerol or other groups, such as neurotransmitters, leads to substantial changes in their biological activity and receptor interactions. We also review the discovery, mechanism and activity of the following omega-3 eCBs- DHA-ethanolamide (DHA-EA), 2-docosahexaenoyl-glycerol (2-DHG) and eCB-like- DHA-serotonin (DHA-5HT), DHA-dopamine (DHA-DA) and the EPA analogs.
    - dilap 4y ago
      Very interesting! Thanks. From briefly searching, it looks like 2-AG more specifically may be responsible for increased appetite? I am unsure of the effects of n3 derived eCBs...
      - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
        > it looks like 2-AG more specifically may be responsible for increased appetite? That would be my thinking. These n3 derived eCBs are pretty new so no one knows. But I can tell you, I have found I get "dry mouth" on occasion when I over do the Omega 3. It used to happen more when I took fish oil capsules which I no longer take. I am also unable to smoke pot becasue it triggers intense anxiety and panic and I think this is becasue I am more sensitive to the THC. And I think this might be a clue how CBD and THC have different psychological effects. THC = Omega 6 and inflammatory and CBD = Omega 3 and anti-inflammatory in a sense. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170718142909.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170718142909.h...
tmjdev 4y ago
If it was the ratio being studied, could you instead increase your n3 fat consumption?
- dilap 4y ago
  Yeah, there are defnly people guzzling fish oil on that assumption. I would be cautious though -- it's a novel dietary regime, and seems likely to induce a lot of oxidative stress... Certainly in mice it seems to. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435540/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435540/ From that study: > It appears of utmost importance in medical and nutritional practice to formulate and handle n-3 PUFA-rich foods or supplements with the greatest care to avoid any PUFA oxidation. This can be particularly relevant in patients suffering from acute or chronic diseases who increase their n-3 PUFA intake because of their reported health benefits.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  I do not think so in my opinion, since Omega 3 and Omega 6 compete for the same enzymes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25373089/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25373089/
scottlamb 4y ago
Very interesting! I've been reading up on nutrition recently and saw articles talking about this ratio, but they were focused on inflammation, not on body composition or hunger. tmjdev wrote: > If it was the ratio being studied, could you instead increase your n3 fat consumption? Some articles suggest exactly that: "To improve the ratio of omega-3 fats to omega-6 fats, eat more omega-3s, not fewer omega-6s." [1] If you're looking for sources other than fish, consider chia. Two tablespoons of chia give 4.3 g of omega-3 fat, as well as 10 g of fiber for no net carbs. [2] Don't eat chia seeds dry; [3, 4] mix into 1.25 cups of water and leave them for at least 30 minutes. I also combine with oats. (I used to eat 0.5 cups of oats every morning. When trying to lower carbs, I went down to 0.25 cups of oats and the chia. The omega-3 fat was a nice surprise.) On the other hand, minimizing processed and restaurant foods is probably a good idea in general. And of course if your goal is to lose weight, removing something from your diet makes more intuitive sense than adding something. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to-avoid-healthy-omega-6-fats https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to... [2] https://cronometer.com/printfood.html?name=Bob%27s%2BRed%2BMill%252C%2BOrganic%2BWhole%2BChia%2BSeeds&food=10581437&measure=27389412&amount=1 https://cronometer.com/printfood.html?name=Bob%27s%2BRed%2BM... [3] https://www.wbur.org/news/2014/10/24/chia-seed-alert-superfood-yes-but-they-landed-one-man-in-the-er https://www.wbur.org/news/2014/10/24/chia-seed-alert-superfo... [4] https://draxe.com/nutrition/how-to-eat-chia-seeds/ https://draxe.com/nutrition/how-to-eat-chia-seeds/
- gamblor956 4y ago
  This. It's a lot easier to increase n3's through consumption of chia seeds and nuts than it is to cut out n6's, because those are in most factory farmed meat and fat sources.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    > It's a lot easier to increase n3's through consumption of chia seeds It depends on your genetics. the genes FADS1 and FADS2 will dictate how much of those short chain omega 3 you can turn into the long chain omega 3, like EPA and DHA, which ate the reason for the metabolic reversal. Also since Omega 6 and Omega 3 compete for the FADS1 and FADS2 activity, eating less Omega 6 will always help.
KapKap55 4y ago
Where in this study does it suggest that calorie intake was limited? The only line I saw relating to calorie management was this one: |All the pigs had ad libitum access to diets and water and consumed the diets for 2 months. So they could eat as much as they wanted to, it seems.
- dilap 4y ago
  You are right, my mistake! I was mixing it up with another study. Unfortunately, it is too late to edit my comment. However, coincidentally, the same conclusions still hold, since it turns out the pigs ate very similar amounts of food on all the diets, except the 5:1 n6:n3 diet, where they ate a bit less. (And that was the diet where the pigs gained the most weight.) Sorry about the error!
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
Yesssss! So my diet is usually very strict. I will mostly only eat salmon, mackerel, oysters and mussels, and a lot of berries with some breads and rice. No plant oils at all and very low carb, but not no carb. I only resorted to this diet because I had a series of metabolic disorders in my self and in my family and I also know my genetics. I have the changes to FADS1, FADS2, and CPT1A which make me much more sensitive to Omega 6 fats that most European Caucasians. See it turns out I have more Sami blood in me than I thought and so I am in reality more Inuit when it comes to what I need from my diet. I most certainly feel most satiated and loose weight even when eating the same amount of calories when I am following this diet. I was a low fat vegan for five years in an attempt to correct my cholesterol, and I was a good vegan too, no junk food. But all it did was lower my HDL and barely reduce by LDL. (I was diagnosed with mild hyperlipidemia). After seeing my geteicss and changing my diet, my HDL rose over 35 for the first time in my life. Now it stays steady at between 50 and 55 Now I am only more sensitive to these fats. Meaning that anyone, even with non-Inuit genetics, will succumb to the higher levels of Omega 6 that course through the modern food industry if they over do it.
- dilap 4y ago
  Super interesting stuff! (FWIW, Dave Feldman (cholesterolcode.com) has me pretty convinced that high LDL is not bad in all contexts. High HDL does always seem to be good, though.)
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    Yes I agree! HDL Carrie’s with it a lot of antioxidant capacity that protects the LDL from being oxidized. I have not worried about my high LDL ever since I understood this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4607861/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4607861/
syockit 4y ago
Now, if only the food packaging shows the ratio of n3:n6 fats... Is it expensive/difficult to determine them?

by dilap 4y ago

wowokay 4y ago

That’s very interesting. I’m curious how it could relate to humans. Not to say it can’t be 1:1, but there are mental aspects that can effect human hunger and I’d be interested in research around that. For example someone who eats a lot but falls into a depression might slow eating considerably (or eat more depending on the person) it’s not to far fetched to consider the possibility of mind state altering medication that could stimulate the brain causing less or more hungry.

dilap 4y ago
Absolutely, the mental aspects of hunger are huge, as anyone who has ever had the munchies (super hungry) or taken adderall (super not hungry) can attest. In fact, n6 fats may also promote hunger, via increasing endocannabinoid production. Here's a study I just found in mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24081493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24081493/ Again just an animal model, but certainly suggestive...
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Omega 3 also increases endocannabinoids, but a different form: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685292/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685292/ AEA and 2-AG are synthesized from omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA), arachidonic acid (AA), and are hydrolyzed by fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH) and monoacylglycerol lipase (MAGL), Herein, we review the discovery and physiological role of omega-3 eCBs that are derived from DHA and EPA (Figure 1A). We illustrate that the derivatization of carboxylic acid end of the omega-3 fatty acid with ethanolamide, glycerol or other groups, such as neurotransmitters, leads to substantial changes in their biological activity and receptor interactions. We also review the discovery, mechanism and activity of the following omega-3 eCBs- DHA-ethanolamide (DHA-EA), 2-docosahexaenoyl-glycerol (2-DHG) and eCB-like- DHA-serotonin (DHA-5HT), DHA-dopamine (DHA-DA) and the EPA analogs.
  - dilap 4y ago
    Very interesting! Thanks. From briefly searching, it looks like 2-AG more specifically may be responsible for increased appetite? I am unsure of the effects of n3 derived eCBs...
    - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      > it looks like 2-AG more specifically may be responsible for increased appetite? That would be my thinking. These n3 derived eCBs are pretty new so no one knows. But I can tell you, I have found I get "dry mouth" on occasion when I over do the Omega 3. It used to happen more when I took fish oil capsules which I no longer take. I am also unable to smoke pot becasue it triggers intense anxiety and panic and I think this is becasue I am more sensitive to the THC. And I think this might be a clue how CBD and THC have different psychological effects. THC = Omega 6 and inflammatory and CBD = Omega 3 and anti-inflammatory in a sense. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170718142909.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170718142909.h...

tmjdev 4y ago

If it was the ratio being studied, could you instead increase your n3 fat consumption?

dilap 4y ago
Yeah, there are defnly people guzzling fish oil on that assumption. I would be cautious though -- it's a novel dietary regime, and seems likely to induce a lot of oxidative stress... Certainly in mice it seems to. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435540/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435540/ From that study: > It appears of utmost importance in medical and nutritional practice to formulate and handle n-3 PUFA-rich foods or supplements with the greatest care to avoid any PUFA oxidation. This can be particularly relevant in patients suffering from acute or chronic diseases who increase their n-3 PUFA intake because of their reported health benefits.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
I do not think so in my opinion, since Omega 3 and Omega 6 compete for the same enzymes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25373089/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25373089/

scottlamb 4y ago

Very interesting! I've been reading up on nutrition recently and saw articles talking about this ratio, but they were focused on inflammation, not on body composition or hunger. tmjdev wrote: > If it was the ratio being studied, could you instead increase your n3 fat consumption? Some articles suggest exactly that: "To improve the ratio of omega-3 fats to omega-6 fats, eat more omega-3s, not fewer omega-6s." [1] If you're looking for sources other than fish, consider chia. Two tablespoons of chia give 4.3 g of omega-3 fat, as well as 10 g of fiber for no net carbs. [2] Don't eat chia seeds dry; [3, 4] mix into 1.25 cups of water and leave them for at least 30 minutes. I also combine with oats. (I used to eat 0.5 cups of oats every morning. When trying to lower carbs, I went down to 0.25 cups of oats and the chia. The omega-3 fat was a nice surprise.) On the other hand, minimizing processed and restaurant foods is probably a good idea in general. And of course if your goal is to lose weight, removing something from your diet makes more intuitive sense than adding something. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to-avoid-healthy-omega-6-fats https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to... [2] https://cronometer.com/printfood.html?name=Bob%27s%2BRed%2BMill%252C%2BOrganic%2BWhole%2BChia%2BSeeds&food=10581437&measure=27389412&amount=1 https://cronometer.com/printfood.html?name=Bob%27s%2BRed%2BM... [3] https://www.wbur.org/news/2014/10/24/chia-seed-alert-superfood-yes-but-they-landed-one-man-in-the-er https://www.wbur.org/news/2014/10/24/chia-seed-alert-superfo... [4] https://draxe.com/nutrition/how-to-eat-chia-seeds/ https://draxe.com/nutrition/how-to-eat-chia-seeds/

gamblor956 4y ago
This. It's a lot easier to increase n3's through consumption of chia seeds and nuts than it is to cut out n6's, because those are in most factory farmed meat and fat sources.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > It's a lot easier to increase n3's through consumption of chia seeds It depends on your genetics. the genes FADS1 and FADS2 will dictate how much of those short chain omega 3 you can turn into the long chain omega 3, like EPA and DHA, which ate the reason for the metabolic reversal. Also since Omega 6 and Omega 3 compete for the FADS1 and FADS2 activity, eating less Omega 6 will always help.

KapKap55 4y ago

Where in this study does it suggest that calorie intake was limited? The only line I saw relating to calorie management was this one: |All the pigs had ad libitum access to diets and water and consumed the diets for 2 months. So they could eat as much as they wanted to, it seems.

dilap 4y ago
You are right, my mistake! I was mixing it up with another study. Unfortunately, it is too late to edit my comment. However, coincidentally, the same conclusions still hold, since it turns out the pigs ate very similar amounts of food on all the diets, except the 5:1 n6:n3 diet, where they ate a bit less. (And that was the diet where the pigs gained the most weight.) Sorry about the error!

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

Yesssss! So my diet is usually very strict. I will mostly only eat salmon, mackerel, oysters and mussels, and a lot of berries with some breads and rice. No plant oils at all and very low carb, but not no carb. I only resorted to this diet because I had a series of metabolic disorders in my self and in my family and I also know my genetics. I have the changes to FADS1, FADS2, and CPT1A which make me much more sensitive to Omega 6 fats that most European Caucasians. See it turns out I have more Sami blood in me than I thought and so I am in reality more Inuit when it comes to what I need from my diet. I most certainly feel most satiated and loose weight even when eating the same amount of calories when I am following this diet. I was a low fat vegan for five years in an attempt to correct my cholesterol, and I was a good vegan too, no junk food. But all it did was lower my HDL and barely reduce by LDL. (I was diagnosed with mild hyperlipidemia). After seeing my geteicss and changing my diet, my HDL rose over 35 for the first time in my life. Now it stays steady at between 50 and 55 Now I am only more sensitive to these fats. Meaning that anyone, even with non-Inuit genetics, will succumb to the higher levels of Omega 6 that course through the modern food industry if they over do it.

dilap 4y ago
Super interesting stuff! (FWIW, Dave Feldman (cholesterolcode.com) has me pretty convinced that high LDL is not bad in all contexts. High HDL does always seem to be good, though.)
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Yes I agree! HDL Carrie’s with it a lot of antioxidant capacity that protects the LDL from being oxidized. I have not worried about my high LDL ever since I understood this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4607861/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4607861/

syockit 4y ago

Now, if only the food packaging shows the ratio of n3:n6 fats... Is it expensive/difficult to determine them?