3 ms·

(I really hope my intent with this comment isn't misunderstood.) I think I've been hasty to judge other people's positions in the past. I'm guilty of confiden

(I really hope my intent with this comment isn't misunderstood.) I think I've been hasty to judge other people's positions in the past. I'm guilty of confidently stating a view on a topic despite knowing that I haven't taken the time to really understand the others' position. Probably 80% of the time, my final conclusion matches my initial one. But I'm trying to become more responsible about this kind of thing. So to that end... I'd like to understand Rogozin's reasons for holding those beliefs. I know basically nothing about that region's history. Is he working from bad factual / historical data? Has he been exposed to specific propaganda / psy-ops? Has he seen or experienced something traumatic that makes him hyper-vigilant about Ukranian leadership or non-Russians in general?

r721 4y ago
Personally I think this is quite close to truth: >People say though that Rogozin is not a big believer in anything, he’s just a huge cynical careerist coming from a very privileged nomenclature background riding any wave that brings him to the top. Right now he’s one of the major pro-war hawks. (quote from this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108578)
lotusmars 4y ago
As I mentioned above most sources say he’s actually a huge careerist coming from a nomenclature family and doing everything to get through the ranks. It’s a really easy climb if you share Nazi and homophobic views of Russian elites and being vocal about it. Plays very well with army generals, old Kremlin elite and general population as well.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Could you explain what a "nomenclature family" is? I haven't heard that term before.
  - gdy 4y ago
    A family of Soviet bureaucrats, possibly in more than one generation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura
  - lotusmars 4y ago
    Soviet Union was a state where most people didn’t have access to goods, fresh food, fine education, sturdy clothes or footwear. Nomenclature was a very small class of people with privileged exclusive access. It’s either families with relatively short ties to Kremlin: people with high positions, spies, diplomats, nuclear scientists, state journalists, pro-government writers. Or people like heads of grocery chains, import shops who controlled access to goods and clothes. People like these could put their children at most successful universities without exams, buy them Western cars and spoil with caviar while most people stood at the queues for hours to get sour milk or bones for soup.
somenameforme 4y ago
There's one name that sums up the issues in Ukraine better than perhaps any other: Stepan Bandera [1]. He was killed in 1959, yet remains a major figure in understanding the divide in Ukraine. He was even made a Hero of Ukraine (Ukraine's highest honor) before that honor was annulled by Yanukovych (the president overthrown in 2014) on a technicality. Going down that rabbit hole or learning about things like the "2014 Odessa Clashes [2]" (and think about how we would treat that event, or even call it, had it happened to the side that we're supposed to like) or even the Language Policy in Ukraine [3], and you can actually start to see how deep in information warfare we currently are. And it's unpleasant. I am avoiding doing much beyond giving references for you to read yourself largely because of what you mentioned. In the current atmosphere it's basically impossible to actually discuss the war in an open fashion, and probably will remain so for years to come. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine
- lotusmars 4y ago
  Odessa clashes was Russian and pro-Russian gangs attacking an unarmed Ukrainian football fan march with firearms. They then retreated to the House of Unions where pro-Russian opposition was based. Basically taking them as hostages. The house was set on fire and multiple people died a horrific death. While immensely tragic, don’t “both sides” this and spread Russian propaganda. The skirmishes were all captured on long live streams. Afterwards Russian TV used it to further spread anti-Ukrainian hatred.
  - gdy 4y ago
    You seriously need to read the wikipedia article about this mass-murder. How the Ukrainian government conducted the investigation is quite telling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes#Investigat...

r721 4y ago

Personally I think this is quite close to truth: >People say though that Rogozin is not a big believer in anything, he’s just a huge cynical careerist coming from a very privileged nomenclature background riding any wave that brings him to the top. Right now he’s one of the major pro-war hawks. (quote from this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32108578)

lotusmars 4y ago

As I mentioned above most sources say he’s actually a huge careerist coming from a nomenclature family and doing everything to get through the ranks. It’s a really easy climb if you share Nazi and homophobic views of Russian elites and being vocal about it. Plays very well with army generals, old Kremlin elite and general population as well.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
Could you explain what a "nomenclature family" is? I haven't heard that term before.
- gdy 4y ago
  A family of Soviet bureaucrats, possibly in more than one generation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura
- lotusmars 4y ago
  Soviet Union was a state where most people didn’t have access to goods, fresh food, fine education, sturdy clothes or footwear. Nomenclature was a very small class of people with privileged exclusive access. It’s either families with relatively short ties to Kremlin: people with high positions, spies, diplomats, nuclear scientists, state journalists, pro-government writers. Or people like heads of grocery chains, import shops who controlled access to goods and clothes. People like these could put their children at most successful universities without exams, buy them Western cars and spoil with caviar while most people stood at the queues for hours to get sour milk or bones for soup.

somenameforme 4y ago

There's one name that sums up the issues in Ukraine better than perhaps any other: Stepan Bandera [1]. He was killed in 1959, yet remains a major figure in understanding the divide in Ukraine. He was even made a Hero of Ukraine (Ukraine's highest honor) before that honor was annulled by Yanukovych (the president overthrown in 2014) on a technicality. Going down that rabbit hole or learning about things like the "2014 Odessa Clashes [2]" (and think about how we would treat that event, or even call it, had it happened to the side that we're supposed to like) or even the Language Policy in Ukraine [3], and you can actually start to see how deep in information warfare we currently are. And it's unpleasant. I am avoiding doing much beyond giving references for you to read yourself largely because of what you mentioned. In the current atmosphere it's basically impossible to actually discuss the war in an open fashion, and probably will remain so for years to come. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

lotusmars 4y ago
Odessa clashes was Russian and pro-Russian gangs attacking an unarmed Ukrainian football fan march with firearms. They then retreated to the House of Unions where pro-Russian opposition was based. Basically taking them as hostages. The house was set on fire and multiple people died a horrific death. While immensely tragic, don’t “both sides” this and spread Russian propaganda. The skirmishes were all captured on long live streams. Afterwards Russian TV used it to further spread anti-Ukrainian hatred.
- gdy 4y ago
  You seriously need to read the wikipedia article about this mass-murder. How the Ukrainian government conducted the investigation is quite telling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes#Investigat...