4 ms·

There are a ton of downsides to hybrid or pure remote teams. First, not everyone is an introvert. I feed off of the energy of seeing people in person. I get sl

There are a ton of downsides to hybrid or pure remote teams. First, not everyone is an introvert. I feed off of the energy of seeing people in person. I get sleepy when I WFH. Second, it's a huge hassle to get messages across when some people are WFH and some people are in the office. Third, not everyone has a home that is ideal for work. Family. Noise. Pets. Internet connection. Etc. Fourth, hybrid and remote miss out on hallway or kitchen connections that could lead to innovation or collaboration. Fifth, eventually people who WFH will want to get out of the house to work. They'll first go to coffee shops. Then they'll realize that they aren't the best place to get work done. Then they'll ask the company to give them a stipend for co-working office hotdesks or dedicated desks. So the company now has to pay for an office for you and you're not even together with your coworkers anymore. Stupid. Sixth, not all positions can be done at home. For example, hardware engineering. So now you have two class of workers in the same company. The ones who can save money by WFH and the ones who must be in the office. This is unfair. Seventh, because of #6, you'll have have to accept less pay for WFH and location adjusted salary. Eighth, you lose the sense of camaraderie. Ninth, for startups, there's nothing better than to sit in a room together, make quick decisions together, look over each other's screen to help, and chit chat about the product which can lead to insights. Tenth, if you're American or European, you're going to regret having pure remote or hybrid work in a few years. Because if you can do your job virtually, there are a ton of hardworking and smart people around the world who will do your job for a fraction of the price. I always tell people that you should be adamant of returning to the office ASAP because of this.

jleyank 4y ago
If they were going to outsource or offshore, they would have done it already. The only reason stopping them is the thought that they make morepaying salaries “here” then “there”. Developers tend to be introverts or introverted, and most serious development requires focus. In the zone as Rands calls it I think. Bugging them doesn’t help them or probably anybody else. Given all the communication mechanisms, if you’re having difficulty spreading a message there’s larger problems than where people are. The lack of home office is a valid point but as I and others have made most modern offices lack a proper work environment as well. Inconvenience workers to use your sunk cost in real estate? Inconvenience everybody because some have to work on site? Harsh environment, there, and good luck with retention. Let those looking to socialize socialize. Let those willing to work work. Pay the remotes less unless/until their production exceeds the norm. And if you’re dragging people into an office edifice, quit yapping about green initiatives. When brainstorming, do it in person. Most of the time development isn’t sitting at a whiteboard, it’s wiggling your fingers at a screen hoping nobody bothers you. And the hiring radius is larger if you don’t require people to move for the position or try to convince their professional partner to move. There’s a ton of downsides to pure in office teams, particularly in some areas.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  >If they were going to outsource or offshore, they would have done it already. Many have done it. More will do it soon when execs realize that they can simply replace permanent WFH employees with cheaper/hardworking ones from other countries. Also, many services have been created to make hiring people from different countries easier such as payments, compliance, taxes. >Developers tend to be introverts or introverted, and most serious development requires focus. In the zone as Rands calls it I think. Bugging them doesn’t help them or probably anybody else. You can redesign the office to give developers more privacy. Cubicles maybe? Also, software development is more than just writing code. It's communication, ideation, collaboration too. Also, most office workers aren't developers. >Given all the communication mechanisms, if you’re having difficulty spreading a message there’s larger problems than where people are. Let's say that you need to make an impromptu announcement in a hybrid environment. First, you make an announcement in person to the people who are next to you. Next, you must then make an announcement to WFH people. Any comments or questions in person aren't heard by WFH people. Or if you do it in a meeting, you have to find time and schedule from WFH people who may or may not be at the computer at that moment. It's a hassle. > Inconvenience workers to use your sunk cost in real estate? I don't understand. >Inconvenience everybody because some have to work on site? It isn't an inconvenience to everybody. Some people prefer office already. >Let those looking to socialize socialize. Let those willing to work work You're implying that people in the office just socialize and don't work? You're also implying that socializing in the office is a waste? >When brainstorming, do it in person. How when some are across the country or could be working anywhere?
  - jleyank 4y ago
    Companies were outsourcing 20+ years ago so I doubt the WFH binge will change things all that much. And unless there's a tax nexus in the foreign country than the foreign workers will either be contractors or workers for a company that provides workers. Whether they're hardworking or not is up to the situation, but having cheaper workers 14 hours away by clock might be a recipe for high turnover rather than high productivity. They've torn up real offices to create the bullpens and thus save on $$ for office space. Yeah, they might reverse the process and spend more on the office environment but I would not bet that most will do this. Suck it up will be the argument that's presented and they'll claim the recession as the excuse. And as this is HN, I don't really care what office workers who aren't developers do. There are other forums for such discussion with other needs and views. Sales, marketing, all of these kinds of things aren't pertinent to my discussion. And as far as communication goes, all of my coworkers share slack and email connections. Thus, a portion or the entire company can be easily reached with a single post/message. I suspect most tech companies are similar. Re: sunk cost, the fact that the company owns or has a long-term lease on a property isn't relevant to how they treat their employees. Or shouldn't be. If you prefer office work, go for it, but many don't especially in the current office conditions. And yeah, I feel that there's a socialization component in bullpen offices that might be useful but it's not work. I've programmed a very long time and the act of software development (aside from initial design) is totally opposite from socialization. If you want to hire the best workers, and many companies claim this, then you either accept WFH or you're really looking to hire the best workers who will rip up their home environment and move to take the new position. Piece of cake for somebody single, rather annoying for those who are not. It's not like there's lots of pink-collar jobs that could accommodate partners... And if the people at the other end of the zoom aren't important enough to bring in to brainstorm, then nobody will listen to them F2F.

jleyank 4y ago

If they were going to outsource or offshore, they would have done it already. The only reason stopping them is the thought that they make morepaying salaries “here” then “there”. Developers tend to be introverts or introverted, and most serious development requires focus. In the zone as Rands calls it I think. Bugging them doesn’t help them or probably anybody else. Given all the communication mechanisms, if you’re having difficulty spreading a message there’s larger problems than where people are. The lack of home office is a valid point but as I and others have made most modern offices lack a proper work environment as well. Inconvenience workers to use your sunk cost in real estate? Inconvenience everybody because some have to work on site? Harsh environment, there, and good luck with retention. Let those looking to socialize socialize. Let those willing to work work. Pay the remotes less unless/until their production exceeds the norm. And if you’re dragging people into an office edifice, quit yapping about green initiatives. When brainstorming, do it in person. Most of the time development isn’t sitting at a whiteboard, it’s wiggling your fingers at a screen hoping nobody bothers you. And the hiring radius is larger if you don’t require people to move for the position or try to convince their professional partner to move. There’s a ton of downsides to pure in office teams, particularly in some areas.

senttoschool 4y ago
>If they were going to outsource or offshore, they would have done it already. Many have done it. More will do it soon when execs realize that they can simply replace permanent WFH employees with cheaper/hardworking ones from other countries. Also, many services have been created to make hiring people from different countries easier such as payments, compliance, taxes. >Developers tend to be introverts or introverted, and most serious development requires focus. In the zone as Rands calls it I think. Bugging them doesn’t help them or probably anybody else. You can redesign the office to give developers more privacy. Cubicles maybe? Also, software development is more than just writing code. It's communication, ideation, collaboration too. Also, most office workers aren't developers. >Given all the communication mechanisms, if you’re having difficulty spreading a message there’s larger problems than where people are. Let's say that you need to make an impromptu announcement in a hybrid environment. First, you make an announcement in person to the people who are next to you. Next, you must then make an announcement to WFH people. Any comments or questions in person aren't heard by WFH people. Or if you do it in a meeting, you have to find time and schedule from WFH people who may or may not be at the computer at that moment. It's a hassle. > Inconvenience workers to use your sunk cost in real estate? I don't understand. >Inconvenience everybody because some have to work on site? It isn't an inconvenience to everybody. Some people prefer office already. >Let those looking to socialize socialize. Let those willing to work work You're implying that people in the office just socialize and don't work? You're also implying that socializing in the office is a waste? >When brainstorming, do it in person. How when some are across the country or could be working anywhere?
- jleyank 4y ago
  Companies were outsourcing 20+ years ago so I doubt the WFH binge will change things all that much. And unless there's a tax nexus in the foreign country than the foreign workers will either be contractors or workers for a company that provides workers. Whether they're hardworking or not is up to the situation, but having cheaper workers 14 hours away by clock might be a recipe for high turnover rather than high productivity. They've torn up real offices to create the bullpens and thus save on $$ for office space. Yeah, they might reverse the process and spend more on the office environment but I would not bet that most will do this. Suck it up will be the argument that's presented and they'll claim the recession as the excuse. And as this is HN, I don't really care what office workers who aren't developers do. There are other forums for such discussion with other needs and views. Sales, marketing, all of these kinds of things aren't pertinent to my discussion. And as far as communication goes, all of my coworkers share slack and email connections. Thus, a portion or the entire company can be easily reached with a single post/message. I suspect most tech companies are similar. Re: sunk cost, the fact that the company owns or has a long-term lease on a property isn't relevant to how they treat their employees. Or shouldn't be. If you prefer office work, go for it, but many don't especially in the current office conditions. And yeah, I feel that there's a socialization component in bullpen offices that might be useful but it's not work. I've programmed a very long time and the act of software development (aside from initial design) is totally opposite from socialization. If you want to hire the best workers, and many companies claim this, then you either accept WFH or you're really looking to hire the best workers who will rip up their home environment and move to take the new position. Piece of cake for somebody single, rather annoying for those who are not. It's not like there's lots of pink-collar jobs that could accommodate partners... And if the people at the other end of the zoom aren't important enough to bring in to brainstorm, then nobody will listen to them F2F.