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> Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas Germany isn't. Many Germans are. If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will

> Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas Germany isn't. Many Germans are. If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. Germans being made poor, especially for no good reasons other than the decisions of politicians abroad, tends to lead to unintended, but severe consequences. Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Guess which countries they will have a look at first.

ajuc 4y ago
> Germany isn't. Many Germans are. Then pay them with state money if needed. > If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. And if we have to choose between EU falling apart and millions of people abroad dying or some Germans temporarily getting a little less wealthy - we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. That's the main problem with Germany. > Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. It's not even just secret financial support or propaganda - just last year Russian army helped Lukashenko "pacify" protesters after he faked elections. This year it did the same in Kazakchstan. That's direct military support. Sending Russian army to kill people protesting against their autocratic governments. Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. But what Germany really cares about is sweet sweet export money. Everything else is an excuse.
- majewsky 4y ago
  > Then pay them with state money if needed. We can't. The radical pro-small-state finance minister fights tooth and nail against any additional debt in order to obey the holy debt ceiling that a bunch of idiots wrote into the constitution about a decade ago because they didn't understand the difference between a national budget and a company budget.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    There is this weird idea in some circles that national budgets are endless debt pits which you just can create any amount of money from for just about any reason. This obviously is incorrect as a blanket statement - it only has some time-constrained credibility for relatively rich countries with a somewhat good future ahead of it. If your economy is weak and your outlook is bad, no-one is going to lend your country money to put the national budget into the red even more - just ask Greece what happens next. Germany has had a relatively strong economy and good growth in the past, which allowed us to spend a bit more lavishly. But with our economy about to break down in the next 20-30 years and our population shrinking massively (worse: with employee-age population shrinking even more), this is no longer the case. Insofar, I think it is prudent to keep expenses under control. Of course, you can't play international moral police and cause massive inflation if you do so. Which is where Berlin fails right now.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  > Then pay them with state money if needed. Yeah, let's heat the fire of economic disaster by shovelling some more freshly-printed cash into it. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, right: [1] > we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. In the end, it is. Without industry, no wealth, and no wealth to spread around the EU, which is most likely going to make it falling apart as well. > Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. True. And now we're about to make them able to stand on their own feet. Great job, another mosaic stone in wrestling control away from Russia! > Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. Different countries have different ideas what is or isn't a prudent way to approach their own interests. Germany has no interest in a war thousands of kilometers away between one party which has proven to be a reliable business partner for decades, and one party that was not a reliable partner, but a constant drain of resources ever since it was created post-1992. > If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. Personally, I'd much rather have an autocrat in Moscow than one in Berlin. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_R...

ajuc 4y ago

> Germany isn't. Many Germans are. Then pay them with state money if needed. > If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. And if we have to choose between EU falling apart and millions of people abroad dying or some Germans temporarily getting a little less wealthy - we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. That's the main problem with Germany. > Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. It's not even just secret financial support or propaganda - just last year Russian army helped Lukashenko "pacify" protesters after he faked elections. This year it did the same in Kazakchstan. That's direct military support. Sending Russian army to kill people protesting against their autocratic governments. Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. But what Germany really cares about is sweet sweet export money. Everything else is an excuse.

majewsky 4y ago
> Then pay them with state money if needed. We can't. The radical pro-small-state finance minister fights tooth and nail against any additional debt in order to obey the holy debt ceiling that a bunch of idiots wrote into the constitution about a decade ago because they didn't understand the difference between a national budget and a company budget.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  There is this weird idea in some circles that national budgets are endless debt pits which you just can create any amount of money from for just about any reason. This obviously is incorrect as a blanket statement - it only has some time-constrained credibility for relatively rich countries with a somewhat good future ahead of it. If your economy is weak and your outlook is bad, no-one is going to lend your country money to put the national budget into the red even more - just ask Greece what happens next. Germany has had a relatively strong economy and good growth in the past, which allowed us to spend a bit more lavishly. But with our economy about to break down in the next 20-30 years and our population shrinking massively (worse: with employee-age population shrinking even more), this is no longer the case. Insofar, I think it is prudent to keep expenses under control. Of course, you can't play international moral police and cause massive inflation if you do so. Which is where Berlin fails right now.
DocTomoe 4y ago
> Then pay them with state money if needed. Yeah, let's heat the fire of economic disaster by shovelling some more freshly-printed cash into it. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, right: [1] > we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. In the end, it is. Without industry, no wealth, and no wealth to spread around the EU, which is most likely going to make it falling apart as well. > Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. True. And now we're about to make them able to stand on their own feet. Great job, another mosaic stone in wrestling control away from Russia! > Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. Different countries have different ideas what is or isn't a prudent way to approach their own interests. Germany has no interest in a war thousands of kilometers away between one party which has proven to be a reliable business partner for decades, and one party that was not a reliable partner, but a constant drain of resources ever since it was created post-1992. > If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. Personally, I'd much rather have an autocrat in Moscow than one in Berlin. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_R...