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We don’t have an energy problem. We have a gas problem. I’m open for (re-)discussing nuclear energy here in Germany, but we could run 100% on nuclear or coal a

by planb 4y ago

We don’t have an energy problem. We have a gas problem. I’m open for (re-)discussing nuclear energy here in Germany, but we could run 100% on nuclear or coal and a full gas stop by Russia would still have catastrophic consequences. We need gas for industrial/chemical processes and heating our homes. In fact, if the Energiewende had progressed a bit further, then more houses would have installed a heat pump by now.

ajuc 4y ago
You have foreign policy blindness problem, no independent media problem and most of all - "everything except making cars and exporting them doesn't matter" problem. Otherwise I can't explain how you were so dumb for 3 decades. It's not like Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas. Or that it couldn't build an LNG terminal just in case. Poland which is much less wealthy - managed to do it. How come nobody in Germany seriously raised these issues for 3 decades? Mainstream didn't care cause industrial output was the only thing that mattered. And EE countries are russophobic, we Germans are so much smarter. They will understand eventually that it's for their own good. You have a lot of rethinking of your foreign policy to do. Germany can't continue to be an informal leader of EU with such obvious incompetency (and I'm charitable here, cause if it's not incompetency it's betrayal).
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  > no independent media This cannot be overstated. The entirety of German media (excluding niche outlets) across the political spectrum align on every important topic.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  > Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas Germany isn't. Many Germans are. If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. Germans being made poor, especially for no good reasons other than the decisions of politicians abroad, tends to lead to unintended, but severe consequences. Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Guess which countries they will have a look at first.
  - ajuc 4y ago
    > Germany isn't. Many Germans are. Then pay them with state money if needed. > If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. And if we have to choose between EU falling apart and millions of people abroad dying or some Germans temporarily getting a little less wealthy - we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. That's the main problem with Germany. > Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. It's not even just secret financial support or propaganda - just last year Russian army helped Lukashenko "pacify" protesters after he faked elections. This year it did the same in Kazakchstan. That's direct military support. Sending Russian army to kill people protesting against their autocratic governments. Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. But what Germany really cares about is sweet sweet export money. Everything else is an excuse.
    - majewsky 4y ago
      > Then pay them with state money if needed. We can't. The radical pro-small-state finance minister fights tooth and nail against any additional debt in order to obey the holy debt ceiling that a bunch of idiots wrote into the constitution about a decade ago because they didn't understand the difference between a national budget and a company budget.
      - DocTomoe 4y ago
        There is this weird idea in some circles that national budgets are endless debt pits which you just can create any amount of money from for just about any reason. This obviously is incorrect as a blanket statement - it only has some time-constrained credibility for relatively rich countries with a somewhat good future ahead of it. If your economy is weak and your outlook is bad, no-one is going to lend your country money to put the national budget into the red even more - just ask Greece what happens next. Germany has had a relatively strong economy and good growth in the past, which allowed us to spend a bit more lavishly. But with our economy about to break down in the next 20-30 years and our population shrinking massively (worse: with employee-age population shrinking even more), this is no longer the case. Insofar, I think it is prudent to keep expenses under control. Of course, you can't play international moral police and cause massive inflation if you do so. Which is where Berlin fails right now.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  Germany is very, very corrupt and extremely risk-averse at the higher levels of politics. Russia is very good at buying and enabling the right people to further their interests (point in case: ex-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder). That's pretty much all there really is to that. It's one of those cases where the root really is malicious intent, not stupidity.
someweirdperson 4y ago
> We don’t have an energy problem. We have a gas problem. As soon as the risk of running out of gas turns into reality, and people won't be able/allowed to heat their homes as usual, many will start plugging in their electrical fan heaters. The gas problem might expand into an electricity problem. How much of a problem, we'll probably find out soon.

by planb 4y ago

ajuc 4y ago

You have foreign policy blindness problem, no independent media problem and most of all - "everything except making cars and exporting them doesn't matter" problem. Otherwise I can't explain how you were so dumb for 3 decades. It's not like Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas. Or that it couldn't build an LNG terminal just in case. Poland which is much less wealthy - managed to do it. How come nobody in Germany seriously raised these issues for 3 decades? Mainstream didn't care cause industrial output was the only thing that mattered. And EE countries are russophobic, we Germans are so much smarter. They will understand eventually that it's for their own good. You have a lot of rethinking of your foreign policy to do. Germany can't continue to be an informal leader of EU with such obvious incompetency (and I'm charitable here, cause if it's not incompetency it's betrayal).

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
> no independent media This cannot be overstated. The entirety of German media (excluding niche outlets) across the political spectrum align on every important topic.
DocTomoe 4y ago
> Germany is so poor it can't afford to pay 50% more for gas Germany isn't. Many Germans are. If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. Germans being made poor, especially for no good reasons other than the decisions of politicians abroad, tends to lead to unintended, but severe consequences. Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Guess which countries they will have a look at first.
- ajuc 4y ago
  > Germany isn't. Many Germans are. Then pay them with state money if needed. > If missing gas leads to industry breaking down, more Germans will be. And if we have to choose between EU falling apart and millions of people abroad dying or some Germans temporarily getting a little less wealthy - we will choose supporting our industry every time cause it's the only thing that matters. That's the main problem with Germany. > Already, wannabe autocrats are winding up their propaganda. Russia was supporting wannabe and actual autocrats all over the world for decades. Including AfD in Germany. It's not even just secret financial support or propaganda - just last year Russian army helped Lukashenko "pacify" protesters after he faked elections. This year it did the same in Kazakchstan. That's direct military support. Sending Russian army to kill people protesting against their autocratic governments. Apparently that's fine but if it was indirect support through industry in Germany losing money it would be too much. If you care about autocrats you should stop paying Putin billions of euro. But what Germany really cares about is sweet sweet export money. Everything else is an excuse.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    > Then pay them with state money if needed. We can't. The radical pro-small-state finance minister fights tooth and nail against any additional debt in order to obey the holy debt ceiling that a bunch of idiots wrote into the constitution about a decade ago because they didn't understand the difference between a national budget and a company budget.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      There is this weird idea in some circles that national budgets are endless debt pits which you just can create any amount of money from for just about any reason. This obviously is incorrect as a blanket statement - it only has some time-constrained credibility for relatively rich countries with a somewhat good future ahead of it. If your economy is weak and your outlook is bad, no-one is going to lend your country money to put the national budget into the red even more - just ask Greece what happens next. Germany has had a relatively strong economy and good growth in the past, which allowed us to spend a bit more lavishly. But with our economy about to break down in the next 20-30 years and our population shrinking massively (worse: with employee-age population shrinking even more), this is no longer the case. Insofar, I think it is prudent to keep expenses under control. Of course, you can't play international moral police and cause massive inflation if you do so. Which is where Berlin fails right now.
dividedbyzero 4y ago
Germany is very, very corrupt and extremely risk-averse at the higher levels of politics. Russia is very good at buying and enabling the right people to further their interests (point in case: ex-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder). That's pretty much all there really is to that. It's one of those cases where the root really is malicious intent, not stupidity.

someweirdperson 4y ago

> We don’t have an energy problem. We have a gas problem. As soon as the risk of running out of gas turns into reality, and people won't be able/allowed to heat their homes as usual, many will start plugging in their electrical fan heaters. The gas problem might expand into an electricity problem. How much of a problem, we'll probably find out soon.