5 ms·

Died WITH COVID, not OF COVID. Let's be clear about what they are counting. More kids have died in the same period from drowning in America.

landemva 4y ago
CDC says, 'Every year in the United States there are an estimated: 3,960* fatal unintentional drownings' https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html With enough amplification from drown child's noses some virus fragments might be found. But vaccines won't help with drowning or car crashes, which each kill more children.
- strangeloops85 4y ago
  Well if there was a vaccine that reduced the risk of dying from drowning I think you’d definitely want to add it to the childhood vaccination schedule. Again, death rate is not the only metric by which we decide what to vaccinate children for.
  - briandon 4y ago
    What if the hypothetical risk-of-drowning vaccine were found to greatly heighten the young recipients', particularly young males', risk of myocarditis and pericarditis (among other potential adverse effects) and a significant percentage of those who developed myocarditis/pericarditis passed away within a few subsequent years? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
    - n8henrie 4y ago
      Based on your link it looks like < 50 / million for a 3 vaccine series? Don't forget to consider the baseline risk of myocarditis in this cohort as well as the risk of myocarditis with COVID itself. I'm also not sure where you're finding numbers about the risk of serious morbidity or mortality with COVID-vaccine-associated myocarditis, please share if you know. My impression is that -- much like COVID -- while cases can be serious / fatal, most cases end up making a full recovery without further sequelae.
      - briandon 4y ago
        The myocarditis risk from covid, like most health risks from covid, is higher for the elderly and low for non-elderly people (see huge disparity in myocarditis risk found to result from a 2nd Moderna jab vs. covid infection for males under 40 in Patone et al. on MedRxiv). The mRNA and adenovirus-vector shots do not prevent infection or transmission and recent studies indicate vaccinated persons take longer to clear recent Omicron variants than those who have refused the vaccines [e.g. "Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection" (see "Figure 1. Viral Decay and Time to Negative Viral Culture."): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092], so younger people aren't helping anyone else by subjecting themselves to the risks of the vaccines. Young, healthy people are being bullied and guilted and tricked into playing Russian roulette, repeatedly to nobody's benefit and at their own very real peril. Having apparently suffered no significant ill effects from a first or second or third shot doesn't even indicate that subsequent shots will be similarly well-tolerated. And myocarditis and pericarditis aren't the only severe or fatal adverse effects being observed. It's madness.
        n8henrie 4y ago
        > like most health risks is higher for the elderly FTFY > see huge disparity in myocarditis risk found to result from a 2nd Moderna jab vs. covid infection for males under 40 in Patone et al. on MedRxiv https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... """ This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed ... Of the 42,200,614 persons included in the study population, 2,539 (0.006%) were hospitalised or died from myocarditis during the study period; 552 (0.001%) of these events occurred during 1-28 days following any dose of vaccine ... First, we confirm and extend our previous findings in more than 42 million persons that the risk of hospitalization or death from myocarditis following COVID-19 infection is higher than the risk associated with vaccination in the overall population. ... Despite more myocarditis events occurring in older persons, the risk following COVID-19 vaccination was largely restricted to younger males aged less than 40 years, where the risks of myocarditis following vaccination and infection were similar. However, the notable exception was that in younger males receiving a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine, the risk of myocarditis was higher following vaccination than infection, with an additional 101 events estimated following a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine compared to 7 events following a positive SARS-CoV-2 test ... Third, although we were able to include 2,136,189 children aged 13 to 17 years old in this analysis, the number of myocarditis events was too small (n=43 in all periods and n=15 in the 1-28 days post vaccination) in this population and precluded an evaluate of risk. ... In summary, the risk of hospital admission or death from myocarditis is greater following COVID-19 infection than following vaccination and remains modest following sequential doses of mRNA vaccine including a third booster dose of BNT162b in the overall population. However, the risk of myocarditis following vaccination is consistently higher in younger males, particularly following a second dose of RNA mRNA-1273 vaccine. """ I'm not sure that this strongly supports your apparent position. > recent studies indicate vaccinated persons take longer to clear recent Omicron variants than those who have refused the vaccines... so younger people aren't helping anyone else by subjecting themselves to the risks of the vaccines Except that absolute risk of getting infected in the first place is decreased in a vaccinated cohort. Which is pointed out by the same study you're referencing: "vaccination has been shown to reduce the incidence of infection and the severity of disease." So that kind of sounds like a way in which they might be helping both themselves and "anyone else." > And myocarditis and pericarditis aren't the only severe or fatal adverse effects being observed. What else? At what rates? Because I've certainly care for plenty of (by and large unvaccinated) people that have died from the disease, young (20s-30s, thankfully none younger have died in my care) as well as old. > It's madness. In that we agree.
strangeloops85 4y ago
Nope, this isn’t true. If a kid comes to a hospital due to an accident and tests Covid positive and dies, that would not be counted. It is ultimately the judgment of the physician (as is the case for illnesses in general since a judgment is often needed to tie the proximate cause of death - say respiratory failure - to and underlying illness. https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-c...
- briandon 4y ago
  Dr. Deborah Birx in April 2020: "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death" https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html# https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_u...! A few months ago, the CDC quietly cut the covid death toll by 72k: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/24/cdc-coding-error-overcount-covid-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/24/cdc-coding-err... People who died for any reason within weeks of a positive covid test result were being counted as covid deaths, even gunshot victim: https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/grand-county-covid-deaths/ https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/grand-county-covid-dea... The loosey-goosey way covid deaths have been counted in the USA, inflating the death toll, seems to be an area of curiously selective collective amnesia.
- peteradio 4y ago
  From your article: > An elderly man arrived at Atlanta’s Emory University Hospital Midtown last month so stricken with advanced cancer that it could take his life within months ... Was his death caused by COVID-19? ... Yes, Auld says: “While he was very weak and frail from his underlying cancer, his death was undoubtedly accelerated and precipitated by COVID-19.
- legalcorrection 4y ago
  I’m curious. You’ve posted something boneheaded and wrong and been proven so in the responses. Will you issue a mea culpa or will you just quietly crawl away and keep spreading falsehoods in other threads? So often, it’s the latter.
n8henrie 4y ago
> Died WITH COVID, not OF COVID. Let's be clear about what they are counting. I am an emergency physician in an area extremely hard-hit by COVID. I'm fully aware of what "they" are counting, and certainly tired of these kinds of bad-faith speculations by un- and misinformed onlookers. > More kids have died in the same period from drowning in America. Absolutely -- and every one of those is also a largely preventable tragedy.

landemva 4y ago

CDC says, 'Every year in the United States there are an estimated: 3,960* fatal unintentional drownings' https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html With enough amplification from drown child's noses some virus fragments might be found. But vaccines won't help with drowning or car crashes, which each kill more children.

strangeloops85 4y ago
Well if there was a vaccine that reduced the risk of dying from drowning I think you’d definitely want to add it to the childhood vaccination schedule. Again, death rate is not the only metric by which we decide what to vaccinate children for.
- briandon 4y ago
  What if the hypothetical risk-of-drowning vaccine were found to greatly heighten the young recipients', particularly young males', risk of myocarditis and pericarditis (among other potential adverse effects) and a significant percentage of those who developed myocarditis/pericarditis passed away within a few subsequent years? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
  - n8henrie 4y ago
    Based on your link it looks like < 50 / million for a 3 vaccine series? Don't forget to consider the baseline risk of myocarditis in this cohort as well as the risk of myocarditis with COVID itself. I'm also not sure where you're finding numbers about the risk of serious morbidity or mortality with COVID-vaccine-associated myocarditis, please share if you know. My impression is that -- much like COVID -- while cases can be serious / fatal, most cases end up making a full recovery without further sequelae.
    - briandon 4y ago
      The myocarditis risk from covid, like most health risks from covid, is higher for the elderly and low for non-elderly people (see huge disparity in myocarditis risk found to result from a 2nd Moderna jab vs. covid infection for males under 40 in Patone et al. on MedRxiv). The mRNA and adenovirus-vector shots do not prevent infection or transmission and recent studies indicate vaccinated persons take longer to clear recent Omicron variants than those who have refused the vaccines [e.g. "Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection" (see "Figure 1. Viral Decay and Time to Negative Viral Culture."): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092], so younger people aren't helping anyone else by subjecting themselves to the risks of the vaccines. Young, healthy people are being bullied and guilted and tricked into playing Russian roulette, repeatedly to nobody's benefit and at their own very real peril. Having apparently suffered no significant ill effects from a first or second or third shot doesn't even indicate that subsequent shots will be similarly well-tolerated. And myocarditis and pericarditis aren't the only severe or fatal adverse effects being observed. It's madness.
      - n8henrie 4y ago
        > like most health risks is higher for the elderly FTFY > see huge disparity in myocarditis risk found to result from a 2nd Moderna jab vs. covid infection for males under 40 in Patone et al. on MedRxiv https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... """ This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed ... Of the 42,200,614 persons included in the study population, 2,539 (0.006%) were hospitalised or died from myocarditis during the study period; 552 (0.001%) of these events occurred during 1-28 days following any dose of vaccine ... First, we confirm and extend our previous findings in more than 42 million persons that the risk of hospitalization or death from myocarditis following COVID-19 infection is higher than the risk associated with vaccination in the overall population. ... Despite more myocarditis events occurring in older persons, the risk following COVID-19 vaccination was largely restricted to younger males aged less than 40 years, where the risks of myocarditis following vaccination and infection were similar. However, the notable exception was that in younger males receiving a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine, the risk of myocarditis was higher following vaccination than infection, with an additional 101 events estimated following a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine compared to 7 events following a positive SARS-CoV-2 test ... Third, although we were able to include 2,136,189 children aged 13 to 17 years old in this analysis, the number of myocarditis events was too small (n=43 in all periods and n=15 in the 1-28 days post vaccination) in this population and precluded an evaluate of risk. ... In summary, the risk of hospital admission or death from myocarditis is greater following COVID-19 infection than following vaccination and remains modest following sequential doses of mRNA vaccine including a third booster dose of BNT162b in the overall population. However, the risk of myocarditis following vaccination is consistently higher in younger males, particularly following a second dose of RNA mRNA-1273 vaccine. """ I'm not sure that this strongly supports your apparent position. > recent studies indicate vaccinated persons take longer to clear recent Omicron variants than those who have refused the vaccines... so younger people aren't helping anyone else by subjecting themselves to the risks of the vaccines Except that absolute risk of getting infected in the first place is decreased in a vaccinated cohort. Which is pointed out by the same study you're referencing: "vaccination has been shown to reduce the incidence of infection and the severity of disease." So that kind of sounds like a way in which they might be helping both themselves and "anyone else." > And myocarditis and pericarditis aren't the only severe or fatal adverse effects being observed. What else? At what rates? Because I've certainly care for plenty of (by and large unvaccinated) people that have died from the disease, young (20s-30s, thankfully none younger have died in my care) as well as old. > It's madness. In that we agree.

strangeloops85 4y ago

Nope, this isn’t true. If a kid comes to a hospital due to an accident and tests Covid positive and dies, that would not be counted. It is ultimately the judgment of the physician (as is the case for illnesses in general since a judgment is often needed to tie the proximate cause of death - say respiratory failure - to and underlying illness. https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-c...

briandon 4y ago
Dr. Deborah Birx in April 2020: "If Someone Dies With COVID-19 We Are Counting That As A COVID-19 Death" https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with_covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html# https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_u...! A few months ago, the CDC quietly cut the covid death toll by 72k: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/24/cdc-coding-error-overcount-covid-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/24/cdc-coding-err... People who died for any reason within weeks of a positive covid test result were being counted as covid deaths, even gunshot victim: https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/grand-county-covid-deaths/ https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/grand-county-covid-dea... The loosey-goosey way covid deaths have been counted in the USA, inflating the death toll, seems to be an area of curiously selective collective amnesia.
peteradio 4y ago
From your article: > An elderly man arrived at Atlanta’s Emory University Hospital Midtown last month so stricken with advanced cancer that it could take his life within months ... Was his death caused by COVID-19? ... Yes, Auld says: “While he was very weak and frail from his underlying cancer, his death was undoubtedly accelerated and precipitated by COVID-19.
legalcorrection 4y ago
I’m curious. You’ve posted something boneheaded and wrong and been proven so in the responses. Will you issue a mea culpa or will you just quietly crawl away and keep spreading falsehoods in other threads? So often, it’s the latter.

n8henrie 4y ago

> Died WITH COVID, not OF COVID. Let's be clear about what they are counting. I am an emergency physician in an area extremely hard-hit by COVID. I'm fully aware of what "they" are counting, and certainly tired of these kinds of bad-faith speculations by un- and misinformed onlookers. > More kids have died in the same period from drowning in America. Absolutely -- and every one of those is also a largely preventable tragedy.