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Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
- heratyian 4y agoImperial Twilight by Stephen Platt gives this letter a lot of context https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Twilight-Opium-Chinas-Golden-ebook/dp/B074YK9NHS/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=imperial+twilight&qid=1657856827&sprefix=imperial+twi%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Twilight-Opium-Chinas-Golden...
- popcube 4y ago
- tyh 4y agoIn the context of the linked letter, quite the opposite...
- popcube 4y agodo you know why he specifically mentioned about England need tea leaf? because he trust that if foreigners do not drink tea, they will constipate and die...
- rsynnott 4y agoI mean, even if he did actually believe this (which, realistically, he almost certainly did not; at this point China would have had reasonable intelligence about the west, and would know that most Europeans and indeed most British people at that time did not drink tea daily), the context is that Britain refused to stop its merchants from dealing class-A drugs in China (really it tacitly encouraged it), so it wouldn't be _that_ out-there a threat?
- beebmam 4y agoFor sure, the UK was deeply responsible for so much death and suffering from the Opium trade in China in this era. Just like modern China (and Mexico) should be considered deeply responsible for the current massive opioid crisis in the United States: 1. https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20%20Fentanyl%20Flow%20in%20the%20United%20States_0.pdf https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-... 2. https://www.science.org/content/article/underground-labs-china-are-devising-potent-new-opiates-faster-authorities-can-respond https://www.science.org/content/article/underground-labs-chi... 3. https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/916890880/we-are-shipping-to-the-u-s-china-s-fentanyl-sellers-find-new-routes-to-drug-user https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/916890880/we-are-shipping-to-... 4. https://www.brookings.edu/research/china-and-synthetic-drugs-control-fentanyl-methamphetamines-and-precursors/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/china-and-synthetic-drugs...
- closedloop129 4y agoIf the drugs are produced in China and thus are available there, why doesn't China (nor Mexico) have the same level of problems? And the other way round: For sure, Opium was imported to England. Why didn't it become a problem?
- bigcat12345678 4y agoUK had a better government and more cohesive society, also much smaller. 10X the population, you'll see anything worked before becomes useless. So one problem in UK is nusaise, in China would be catastrophe. Just because Opium is not a problem in UK, doesn't mean that it would be a problem in China. Also, liberal voting politics works in the West, could be a disaster in the majority of the world today outside of the West.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago>And the other way round: For sure, Opium was imported to England. Why didn't it become a problem? Opium was produced around Calcutta(Kolkata). Shipping it to China was cheap, shipping it to the UK was expensive. Only the wealthy British could afford opium, and they used a ton of it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_English_Opium-Eater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_English_Opiu...
- rnvannatta 4y agoWell, in that historical case, the sale of Opium to China was a state sponsored project. Opium was only a minor problem in England, but it wasn't being smuggled into England by a quasi-hostile foreign country trying to re-balance its trade deficits.
- beebmam 4y agoIf you think opium wasn't a problem in England, you're delusional. A quick google search will prove you wrong: https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Opium-in-Victorian-Britain/ https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Opium... The drugs that China exports to the US aren't legal to be sold in China, but are legal (for them) to export to other countries.
- Hayvok 4y agoAnd queue the first Opium War. The Chinese did indeed start a crackdown on opium trade after this, including sending troops to seize warehouses full of it. This action sparked off the first Opium War with Britian, and kicking off the so-called Chinese “Century of Humiliation”.
- bshepard 4y agoIt is important to stress that China was ruled, at the time, by a government that was widely seen as "Nonchinese" -- this sense of external rule surely had a great deal to do with the emergence of mass addiction, as the Ching state that imposed the laws had serious legitimacy issues (and would collapse less than a century later.)
- singularity2001 4y agoHow was it nonchinese?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- est 4y agoIt's Chinese, but non-Han.
- otabdeveloper4 4y agoThe Qing were originally Manchu invaders. And yes, the Qing empire is still viewed by many in China to be illegitimate.
- ginko 4y agoWhich is what I find strange about the Century of Humiliation. Why is China losing a minor war that killed a couple thousand Chinese soldiers a great humiliation while getting outright conquered at least twice (once by the Mongols and once by the Manchu) isn't? Tens of millions of Chinese died during the Manchu invasion of China. The Qing forced every Han Chinese male to shave their forehead and wear a queue on the threat of death, but that's apparently not humiliating.
- bshepard 4y agoOne thing to keep in mind is that the Ching government had already launched an opium war before the British began their narcopolitics. This is from P.E Caquet's "Opium's Orphans" “n the leafy town of Taiyu, Shanxi, an inland Chinese province southwest of Beijing, the district magistrate Chen Lihe had a stele put up for public display. The date was 1817 and, four years earlier, the emperor had issued a raft of regulations against opium, including severe punishments for handling, selling or consuming it. The stele read: Opium is produced beyond the seas, but its poison flows into China. Those who buy it and consume it break their families, harm their own lives, and violate the law. Treachery, licentiousness, robbery, and brigandage all arise from it. Both the young and vigorous and the old and weak die from it. Wealthy and luxurious houses are impoverished by it. Brave and bright sons and younger brothers are made stupid and unfilial by it. People who dwell in peace in their houses well stocked with delicacies feel the heavy blows of the bamboo and the weight of the cangue because of it; they also suffer strangulation, exile, and banishment at the hands of the law because of it. As for its injurious effect on custom, opium destroys the five natural relationships, and its harmful effect on individual character is even more unspeakable."
- ammo1662 4y agoNo, issuing regulation against drugs on their own territory is not a "war". But deploying Royal Navy to acquire foreign territory for trade is the "war".
- _tik_ 4y agoI did not know Qing sent their Royal Navy to attack England. Can you provide any reference?
- throwbigdata 4y agoEngland took Hong Kong.
- _tik_ 4y agoOk, now I know. I assumed HK was a Qing territory annexed by England. Like Russia annexed Donbas
- ttflee 4y agoFYI, Celestial grace in his letter meant the grace of Qing Emperor, and Celestial Court the Qing Government. Lin's perspective was pretty Qing-centric which was of course orthodox in his ideology. The letter reads so supercilious as if it were written by someone much worse than D. Trump. I doubt if the messenger had the guts to deliver or just burnt it silently.
- la64710 4y agoThe behavior of the few barbarians undid all the good work done by the company to help both the nations. And sadly the queen did not do anything to stop the barbarians.
- rnvannatta 4y agoWell, England had a massive trade deficit, and failed to find anything the Chinese wanted to buy, except opium. In the end, this was approved by the queen to balance their trade deficit, as they were bleeding silver.
- 99_00 4y agoHow is it possible that the England had nothing China wanted to buy when England was so technologically superior that they were able to defeat China's military, fighting in China, on the other side of the planet, outnumbered 10 to 1?
- rnvannatta 4y agoThe same smugness and sense of superiority that China held for England, was also held by England for China. As such, the English only primarily tried to sell knickknacks and things the Chinese could produce better. This ended up backfiring and cementing the view to the Chinese that the English were simple barbarians. They did indeed have weapons the Chinese (and other nations) wanted, but only sold a limited amount of them, to avoid arming the other nations too well, in case they ever wanted to go conquering.
- 99_00 4y agoThere are reasons you wouldn't sell your best military tech to a country other than them being on your list to be taken over. Traditionally, in history and now, you sell your best military tech to your strongest allies, and not to random countries. It was difficult to sell into China because import was monopolized by a few Chinese firms and geographically restricted. To say that preindustrial China wouldn't benefit from good produced in industrialized Britian or America is highly suspect and defies common sense.
- cosmojulis 4y agoChinese court rejects Canadian’s appeal against death sentence for drug smuggling https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/china/china-robert-schellenberg-lost-appeal-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/china/china-robert-schellenbe... Singapore executes disabled Malaysian convicted in drug case https://www.npr.org/2022/04/27/1094965375/singapore-executes-disabled-malaysian-convicted-in-drug-case https://www.npr.org/2022/04/27/1094965375/singapore-executes...
- neither_color 4y ago>We find your country is sixty or seventy thousand li [three li make one mile, ordinarily] from China Yet there are barbarian ships that strive to come here for trade for the purpose of making a great profit. The wealth of China is used to profit the barbarians. That is to say, the great profit made by barbarians is all taken from the rightful share of China. By what right do they then in return use the poisonous drug to injure the Chinese people? Even though the barbarians may not necessarily intend to do us harm, yet in coveting profit to an extreme, they have no regard for injuring others. Let us ask, where is your conscience? I have heard that the smoking of opium is very strictly forbidden by your country; that is because the harm caused by opium is clearly understood. Since it is not permitted to do harm to your own country, then even less should you let it be passed on to the harm of other countries -- how much less to China! Of all that China exports to foreign countries, there is not a single thing which is not beneficial to people: they are of benefit when eaten, or of benefit when used, or of benefit when resold: all are beneficial. Is there a single article from China which has done any harm to foreign countries? >Suppose there were people from another country who carried opium for sale to England and seduced your people into buying and smoking it; certainly your honorable ruler would deeply hate it and be bitterly aroused. We have heard heretofore that your honorable ruler is kind and benevolent. >We have further learned that in London, the capital of your honorable rule, and in Scotland, Ireland, and other places, originally no opium has been produced. Only in several places of India under your control such as Bengal, Madras, Bombay, Patna, Benares, and Malwa has opium been planted from hill to hill, and ponds have been opened for its manufacture. For months and years work is continued in order to accumulate the poison. The obnoxious odor ascends, irritating heaven and frightening the spirits. Indeed you, O King, can eradicate the opium plant in these places, hoe over the fields entirely, and sow in its stead the five grains [millet, barley, wheat, etc.]. Anyone who dares again attempt to plant and manufacture opium should be severely punished. This will really be a great, benevolent government policy that will increase the common weal and get rid of evil. For this, Heaven must support you and the spirits must bring you good fortune, prolonging your old age and extending your descendants. All will depend on this act. Reading this was pretty sad. So many vain appeals to reason. "We know you know it's bad for you, you've banned it yourself, please stop dumping it on us." Unfortunately the people he wrote that letter to didnt see them as equals.
- dr_dshiv 4y agoFor more context, here is a great, brief history of the Opium wars: https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/First-Opium-War/ https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/First...
- nigerian1981 4y agoI highly recommend the Ibis Trilogy by Indian novelist Amitav Ghosh
- nigerian1981 4y agoI highly recommend the Ibis Trilogy by Indian novelist Amitav Ghosh about the Opium Wars
- stanleychink 4y ago[dead]
- rsynnott 4y ago> Take tea and rhubarb, for example; the foreign countries cannot get along for a single day without them. I'm curious where the idea that rhubarb was a major dependency came from. Or indeed the idea that it was a Chinese monopoly; it was grown in Europe in this era.
- boomboomsubban 4y agoRhubarb started being cultivated in England either a few decades earlier or at most a century, and the kind grown in Europe was a different species many considered inferior. Rhubarb was also frequently used in medicine, though it had little effect. It was a major export for centuries, primarily to Russia.
- kogus 4y agoThis is timely- I happen to be reading Tai-Pan by James Clavell at the moment, which is a wonderful bit of historical fiction set at this time.
- itbeho 4y agoMakes one wonder about the flood of fentanyl coming in to the US from China.
- anonymousiam 4y agoIt did not get much media coverage, but when Donald Trump was giving a speech in Las Vegas last week, he suggested that stricter laws for Fentanyl trafficking should be enacted, including capital punishment. Instead, Nevada (and many other states) have reduced penalties and now will not even arrest somebody with less than 28 grams (14k times the lethal dose). China solved their drug problem. Ours is spinning out of control.
- itbeho 4y ago5,502 opium, 3,946 fentanyl deaths in California for 2020, which is the most recent this dashboard presents: https://skylab.cdph.ca.gov/ODdash https://skylab.cdph.ca.gov/ODdash For comparison: There were 3,449 gun related deaths reported in the same year: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/... * edited to clarify that gun deaths were from all cause, not just homicide
- anonymousiam 4y agoNearly 100k deaths from opioids in 2020 (the most recent year with full data). https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/index.html Fentanyl is an opioid, albeit a synthetic one. The CDC numbers don't break down the percentages of which drug killed the most people. The California site that you cited does, but the 5,502 number you cite is "Deaths Related to Any Opioid Overdose", which includes Fentanyl. So according to the link you cited, nearly 72% of all opioid deaths (in California) were caused by Fentanyl. The California firearm death count you cite is still lower than California's Fentanyl death rate for the same period. Extrapolating for the whole country using California's Fentanyl/Opioid ratio yields an approximate US Fentanyl death count of 65,838 for 2020. https://www.dea.gov/factsheets/fentanyl https://www.dea.gov/factsheets/fentanyl "Rates of overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids other than methadone, which includes fentanyl and fentanyl analogs, increased over 56% from 2019 to 2020. The number of overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids in 2020 was more than 18 times the number in 2013. More than 56,000 people died from overdoses involving synthetic opioids in 2020. The latest provisional drug overdose death counts through June 2021 suggest an acceleration of overdose deaths during the COVID-19 pandemic." https://www.cdc.gov/opioids/basics/fentanyl.html https://www.cdc.gov/opioids/basics/fentanyl.html