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> When it comes to art against tyranny, no work is more seared into our consciousness than Guernica, Pablo Picasso’s dark, howling mural against fascist terror.
by kodah 4y ago
> When it comes to art against tyranny, no work is more seared into our consciousness than Guernica, Pablo Picasso’s dark, howling mural against fascist terror.
This is an interesting phrasing when juxtaposed with the title, and one that I think deserves attention, especially on HN. Being "anti-war" is about the worst rhetorical position one can take - nor does it actually reflect the truths of what a sensible person believes about "war".
There are bad people in the world, some of those become powerful people and inflict their badness widely. Sometimes you can reason and guide these people but not usually. That's where diplomacy comes in, diplomacy can deter activity away from the source of conflict. Sometimes diplomacy is ignored repeatedly, or worked around. Tensions escalate, stalemates are reached, and the diplomacy tool bag is left empty. War is the last tool available to modern government in order to preserve it's way of life. Categorically, war is a tool to be respected - much like a powerful drug. Its why warrior cultures and ethos grew out of the activity and remain in-tact today around the world.
Picasso's piece, to me, was not anti-war - anti-war would mean, in this context, let the person willing to inflict the most violence against me have their way. It's anti-tyrrany, which is what was happening at the time. Words mean things, and I think people that explain things the way this piece starts out do so intentionally, and that is regrettable.
- mc32 4y agoI’m not going to question your premise, I just want to point out that while a small minority they are, many pacifists would submit knowing their fate. Fortunately most people are not pacifists against tyranny.
- w-j-w 4y ago
- mistrial9 4y agodidn't Albert Einstein say something about simultaneously preparing for, and preventing War, is not possible? It hints of an inner psyche truth and also a social-purpose mobilization truth. War professionals win against war amateurs, no doubt about it. But War professionals do not like to hear that they are in fact, making the bed for War and therefore it will come; or that the State will sometimes enact War despite their people, not for them. Someone else said "great literature is about love and war, common paperbacks are about sex and violence" .. there are layers to this and those layers do not necessarily resonate. Truth as we live it contains contradictions. Large contradictions exist in predatory actions versus defense versus justice, and using violence to win political power that brings stability. The arts are personal and the images in Guernica are personal psyche images, to my eye.
- ncmncm 4y agoMuch as I hate seeing money wasted on weaponry that could be devoted to forestalling global climate catastrophe and the imminent collapse of civilization... War has only ever been prevented by having been prepared for it. Sometimes you get war anyway. When you do, the outcome without preparation is much worse. Captain Cook happened to mention the peaceful Chatham Islanders, hundreds of miles off east, to some Maori in New Zealand. Within two weeks they had mounted an expedition that killed all the men and enslaved or killed all the women and children.
- kritiko 4y agoSince you brought rhetoric into it: -you are straw manning pacifism -you are claiming no sensible person could be anti-war using that straw man -you are implying that war is generally fought for self-preservation against bad leaders I don’t really agree with any of those propositions. I’m also curious what you think the author’s intention was in calling Guernica anti-war.
- kodah 4y agoI didn't use the term pacifism once, I said anyone who uses the word "anti-war". Regardless, feel free to explain how I'm wrong within the context of what I actually said rather than lazily saying I produced a strawman and walking away. Lastly, I think you have successfully proved why this deserves discussion, especially on HN.
- tremon 4y agoCategorically, war is a tool to be respected - much like a powerful drug Categorically, war is a tool to be despised. It sacrifices lots of people to the follies of a few powerful fools who couldn't be bothered to find better solutions to achieve their goals. That war is sometimes necessary in no way means that it should be respected.
- kodah 4y ago> Categorically, war is a tool to be despised. I think you took "respected" a little too literally (potentially narrowly, or specifically) in this case. > It sacrifices lots of people This is exactly why I said it's a tool to be respected.
- BoorishBears 4y ago>I think you took "respected" a little too literally (potentially narrowly, or specifically) in this case. I think you took "anti-war" a little too literally (potentially narrowly, or specifically) in this case.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kodah 4y agoNot that this post is even making the slightest attempt at discourse. I don't think I did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32105717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32105717 There are plenty of people who are just patently anti-war, to no end. Someone with a nuanced position on war would not be using the term "anti-war". It amazes me there's an abundance of these folks on HN, which is why this was worth pointing out.
- BoorishBears 4y agoThe finer points for me to make have been made all over, you attacked a complete straw man. > Someone with a nuanced position on war would not be using the term "anti-war" Nonsense. You're taking a narrow view of the concept, that they are literally against all forms of fighting no matter how great the evil encountered. That is unreasonable and uncommon. Rather people who are anti-war are for dealing with conflicts at a root level before they even approach war, and for ending unscrupulous wars. If you didn't even know the thing you were rallying against, why did you bother? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-war_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-war_movement > Many activists distinguish between anti-war movements and peace movements. Anti-war activists work through protest and other grassroots means to attempt to pressure a government (or governments) to put an end to a particular war or conflict or to prevent it in advance.
- hedora 4y agoI've long thought that the old tradition of having leaders in the front of military charges needs to be brought back. Someone would have put a hole in the heads of Putin and friends a long, long time ago. I think this is a much more practical approach to being anti-war than pacifism.
- krisoft 4y ago> I think this is a much more practical approach to being anti-war than pacifism. What practical set of steps do you propose to get Putin at the front of a military charge?
- trasz 4y agoI’d propose a JDAM. This war would look a whole lot different if Kremlin ceased to exist.
- lostlogin 4y ago> I've long thought that the old tradition of having leaders in the front of military charges needs to be brought back This rarely happened - they weren't that stupid.
- lostlogin 4y ago> Picasso's piece, to me, was not anti-war Elsewhere in this thread a link is given to the UN covering the painting while Powell argued for the Iraq war. The UN saw the the painting as anti war.
- trasz 4y agoNow replace “war” with “murder” or “rape”. Are murder and rape “tools to be respected” to you too?