4 ms·

I'm going to do a bit of "show, don't tell" here, because if you're asking this I'm assuming you're open to learning more about the sexism and bias that typical

I'm going to do a bit of "show, don't tell" here, because if you're asking this I'm assuming you're open to learning more about the sexism and bias that typically cause men to dominate conversations in tech/workplaces: https://www.indy100.com/news/victorias-secret-model-lyndsey-scott-instagram-coder-apple-resonse-8534446 https://www.indy100.com/news/victorias-secret-model-lyndsey-... https://www.fastcompany.com/40456604/these-women-entrepreneurs-created-a-fake-male-cofounder-to-dodge-startup-sexism https://www.fastcompany.com/40456604/these-women-entrepreneu... https://hbr.org/1995/09/the-power-of-talk-who-gets-heard-and-why https://hbr.org/1995/09/the-power-of-talk-who-gets-heard-and... https://janicetomich.com/women-speaking-while-female/ https://janicetomich.com/women-speaking-while-female/ https://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female-manterruptions/ https://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-femal...

actfrench 4y ago
As another woman in tech, I thank you for your effort putting together these resources. Hopefully it will raise awareness and those men who support equality in the workplace and more importantly, see the value of women’s ideas - ideas that they perhaps do not hear because they are not giving time for them to speak them- will benefit.
mulmen 4y ago
Thanks for sharing. I’m aware of talking over people and the dimensions on which it biases. I ask to uncover “unknown unknowns” of some other (unknown to me) behavior that might also need to be addressed. To be more specific, I am also afraid of over-indexing on inclusion. Do I call on female coworkers more often to speak up in areas where I know they are experts because I know they may not do so themselves? Is that fair to them? Does it make them feel inadequate or is it appreciated or does it not even register? If I ask Susan to elaborate on a sprint update but don't ask Frank does that signal that I don't trust Susan? What if I am really just interested in her task? I know the cliches about confident white men in tech. Talking over people, the white savior, etc. But, as a confident white man in tech I need input from everyone to be better. So, thanks for sharing.
- spdustin 4y ago
  I’m not a female, but work for a women-owned tech company with a predominantly female staff, and I don’t speak for women when I say this: yes, in my experience, you should call on female coworkers to share their opinions or insights. It’s fair, and often appreciated, but don’t do it expecting gratitude. Do it because you know their input matters. Many—not all—women have had it ingrained in them since childhood to defer to men, especially men in authority. If it’s appropriate, don’t make it an imperative statement like, “Susan, tell us your thoughts.” Respect their agency, and ask, “Susan, is there anything you’d like to add” or “do you have an update to share on your task?” This applies to your male co-workers too, of course. Because, at the end of the day, none of this is about you. It’s about what’s best for the team, right? Knowing when to step up and when to step back and elevate others is one of the hardest things to learn about being a leader. But fostering a culture of open curiosity and collaboration is the best antidote to a culture of quiet resentment because someone feels ignored or left out. Not to mention the loss of productivity that imposter syndrome can cause…but that’s a whole different thread. Anyway, just my experience on the matter. I personally think it’s important to help men understand how their view of team dynamics may be exclusionary to women. I’m not speaking on behalf of women at all. If there’s any question about how to best include any specific person in your organization, there’s an easy way to get that question answered: ask them.
  - Wohlf 4y ago
    I think this is a really good practice in general! It would help people (like my younger self) who might be afraid to speak up or interrupt regardless of gender.
gardenhedge 4y ago
What are you trying to show with the first link? It doesn't seem to link into men dominating conversations in the workplace.
wincy 4y ago
Jo Jorgensen, who ended up being the Libertarian presidential candidate in 2020, was accused of being given more time and more opportunities to speak by another candidate during the libertarian party debates. It was hilarious when he was told by the moderator that no, Jo had used the least time. She’d make a good point, then stop talking. No bloviating like the men.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
Honestly this list is of dubious general value As a long timer man in tech, being a shy and private person and being uncomfortable speaking in public, I've experienced the same exact things listed in those articles for as long as I can remember, except having to fake a business partner cause I've never participated in a round of funding, but I'd probably hire one if I needed to. Because it would work better than sending myself. I've learned that those aren't my strongest skills and that's OK, I've become a very good writer instead, because it's something I like and I feel comfortable doing. to the point that people now ask me to help them or plainly ask me if they can pay me to write for them (notice that if you think my writing is mediocre it's because it's true: English is not my native language and foreign languages are another of those "not my strongest skills", I'm much better with programming languages) Sometimes things are as they are because we are as we are. I also think there's a cultural aspect to the phenomenon, in some countries, especially in USA, people are pressured to talk in public and express "dominance" or "confidence" by taking the stand. Fake until you make it they usually say. In my case it only made me feel more of an impostor, who was faking skills he did not have.
- jameshart 4y ago
  I hear your reaction here, and I understand where it's coming from. But. Quiet men in tech who are tempted to this line of thinking - that they too have problems with being talked over, that they too don't get noticed for promotions because they aren't the voice people remember hearing... Please consider that the avenues that are open to you as a man in this industry to overcome those difficulties might not be as available to a woman in the same position. Women are more likely to find themselves in that position, because they have been in situations in the past where speaking up has led to negative reactions, where being opinionated has been dismissed as being bossy, etc. - those constraints are not the same ones you have faced. Your solutions may not work. You owe it to your female colleagues, when they say 'we find we tend to face these particular problems in ways that we see men tend not to', not to dismiss that as 'well, I'm pretty sure some men have the same issue'. Their experience is relevant. You will learn by listening to what they have to say. As you rightly recognize, we all have or lack different privileges. As a non-native English speaker doubtless you have encountered challenges I haven't, and indeed that native English speaking women don't face. But this dismissal of a raft of worthwhile sources for a well documented problem that many women actually experience as 'of dubious general value' is disingenuous.

actfrench 4y ago

As another woman in tech, I thank you for your effort putting together these resources. Hopefully it will raise awareness and those men who support equality in the workplace and more importantly, see the value of women’s ideas - ideas that they perhaps do not hear because they are not giving time for them to speak them- will benefit.

mulmen 4y ago

Thanks for sharing. I’m aware of talking over people and the dimensions on which it biases. I ask to uncover “unknown unknowns” of some other (unknown to me) behavior that might also need to be addressed. To be more specific, I am also afraid of over-indexing on inclusion. Do I call on female coworkers more often to speak up in areas where I know they are experts because I know they may not do so themselves? Is that fair to them? Does it make them feel inadequate or is it appreciated or does it not even register? If I ask Susan to elaborate on a sprint update but don't ask Frank does that signal that I don't trust Susan? What if I am really just interested in her task? I know the cliches about confident white men in tech. Talking over people, the white savior, etc. But, as a confident white man in tech I need input from everyone to be better. So, thanks for sharing.

spdustin 4y ago
I’m not a female, but work for a women-owned tech company with a predominantly female staff, and I don’t speak for women when I say this: yes, in my experience, you should call on female coworkers to share their opinions or insights. It’s fair, and often appreciated, but don’t do it expecting gratitude. Do it because you know their input matters. Many—not all—women have had it ingrained in them since childhood to defer to men, especially men in authority. If it’s appropriate, don’t make it an imperative statement like, “Susan, tell us your thoughts.” Respect their agency, and ask, “Susan, is there anything you’d like to add” or “do you have an update to share on your task?” This applies to your male co-workers too, of course. Because, at the end of the day, none of this is about you. It’s about what’s best for the team, right? Knowing when to step up and when to step back and elevate others is one of the hardest things to learn about being a leader. But fostering a culture of open curiosity and collaboration is the best antidote to a culture of quiet resentment because someone feels ignored or left out. Not to mention the loss of productivity that imposter syndrome can cause…but that’s a whole different thread. Anyway, just my experience on the matter. I personally think it’s important to help men understand how their view of team dynamics may be exclusionary to women. I’m not speaking on behalf of women at all. If there’s any question about how to best include any specific person in your organization, there’s an easy way to get that question answered: ask them.
- Wohlf 4y ago
  I think this is a really good practice in general! It would help people (like my younger self) who might be afraid to speak up or interrupt regardless of gender.

gardenhedge 4y ago

What are you trying to show with the first link? It doesn't seem to link into men dominating conversations in the workplace.

wincy 4y ago

Jo Jorgensen, who ended up being the Libertarian presidential candidate in 2020, was accused of being given more time and more opportunities to speak by another candidate during the libertarian party debates. It was hilarious when he was told by the moderator that no, Jo had used the least time. She’d make a good point, then stop talking. No bloviating like the men.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

Honestly this list is of dubious general value As a long timer man in tech, being a shy and private person and being uncomfortable speaking in public, I've experienced the same exact things listed in those articles for as long as I can remember, except having to fake a business partner cause I've never participated in a round of funding, but I'd probably hire one if I needed to. Because it would work better than sending myself. I've learned that those aren't my strongest skills and that's OK, I've become a very good writer instead, because it's something I like and I feel comfortable doing. to the point that people now ask me to help them or plainly ask me if they can pay me to write for them (notice that if you think my writing is mediocre it's because it's true: English is not my native language and foreign languages are another of those "not my strongest skills", I'm much better with programming languages) Sometimes things are as they are because we are as we are. I also think there's a cultural aspect to the phenomenon, in some countries, especially in USA, people are pressured to talk in public and express "dominance" or "confidence" by taking the stand. Fake until you make it they usually say. In my case it only made me feel more of an impostor, who was faking skills he did not have.

jameshart 4y ago
I hear your reaction here, and I understand where it's coming from. But. Quiet men in tech who are tempted to this line of thinking - that they too have problems with being talked over, that they too don't get noticed for promotions because they aren't the voice people remember hearing... Please consider that the avenues that are open to you as a man in this industry to overcome those difficulties might not be as available to a woman in the same position. Women are more likely to find themselves in that position, because they have been in situations in the past where speaking up has led to negative reactions, where being opinionated has been dismissed as being bossy, etc. - those constraints are not the same ones you have faced. Your solutions may not work. You owe it to your female colleagues, when they say 'we find we tend to face these particular problems in ways that we see men tend not to', not to dismiss that as 'well, I'm pretty sure some men have the same issue'. Their experience is relevant. You will learn by listening to what they have to say. As you rightly recognize, we all have or lack different privileges. As a non-native English speaker doubtless you have encountered challenges I haven't, and indeed that native English speaking women don't face. But this dismissal of a raft of worthwhile sources for a well documented problem that many women actually experience as 'of dubious general value' is disingenuous.