6 ms·

They discuss a bit in the article, but the material they had prototyped with was very different than the material they tried to scale up with. It sounds like t

They discuss a bit in the article, but the material they had prototyped with was very different than the material they tried to scale up with. It sounds like their scaled up plant accepted a wide variety of materials, but this one specific input stream slowed them down. So they weren't shut down while they figured this out, they just processed the material they knew they could process until they had a solution here.

rexreed 4y ago
Why would you prototype with a material that's substantially different from the real-world item? I read the article and this bit puzzled me. The differences clearly matter, and the $300M bankruptcy they reference in the article even makes that point.
- truffdog 4y ago
  Probably they want to handle wheat waste and corn waste long term. Seems like there should be plenty of both to go around
- liminvorous 4y ago
  They want to be able to process both the material they prototyped with and the material they started with (straw) and the material they tried to scale up with (corn cobs), and probably any kind of plant matter that has less structural integrity than say, timber.
- pkrein 4y ago
  Initial testing was in San Francisco, where corn stover is relatively tricky to come by because corn is not widely grown in California, and agricultural residues cannot be brought into the state because of the bugs. Wheat straw was much easier to procure in-state. Since encountering the differences, we tracked down the rarer corn growers in California and now use corn stover for testing as well.
  - rexreed 4y ago
    If corn stover is a critical importance to your business and business model, wouldn't it be more effective, efficient, and beneficial to your business to be where the critical resource and information and experience is? Basically why not move to Kansas instead of stay put in California?
    - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
      Come on. No one wants to live in Kansas. And it's extremely difficult to build in a rural setting. You try prototyping an experimental cutting-edge technology in the middle of a corn field 2 hours from the nearest Home Depot or metal fabricator.
      - rexreed 4y ago
        John Deere might find that interesting. Now headquartered in Moline, IL (Iowa border), they started up and built their company exactly in the rural America (Grand Detour, IL), when Home Depot didn't even exist. Yes it was over 150 years ago, but there's nothing that prevents you from starting an agtech company where the resources are if they are in the midwest. The Kauffman Foundation, a major entrepreneurial resource is based in Kansas City, MO.
      - stonemetal12 4y ago
        The wikipedia page for Wichita, Kansas claims Boeing, Airbus, and Learjet among others operate design and manufacturing facilities there. You should be able to find a metal fabricator and a home depot.
      - hinkley 4y ago
        There are less drastic options than Kansas that would work fine. Chicago has an international airport. Indianapolis as well (though it’s not listed in Wikipedia, which makes me wonder how complete that is). St Louis and Minneapolis are major hubs. Large airports besides those I’m less familiar with, but if you’re planning to process corn waste what you need is rail access, not air. So then you can add a lot more of the midwest and still maybe be able to find Bulgogi for lunch. The Quad Cities, Peoria, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Omaha.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ComputerCat 4y ago
  Yeah it's definitely a bit peculiar. You'd think they could have done some more research into the makeup of the material they'd be processing, get a good understanding of the needs of the machinery...
- carbadtraingood 4y ago
  Wheat straw is a common agricultural waste product across the US, and if they can solve processing that they still win. It's not that they tested A for a product that will only process B. They tested A for a product that will eventually process A and B and C and... Scaling up means testing with new inputs at scale. So now they've done that?
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
I’m starting to believe the idea that long term zero percent rates have made MBAs in charge of almost everything completely careless to the historical realities of business where you have a product and process before investing tons into a system. It seems to me that with “endless free money” we miss things like “this one input stream will be a nightmare, let’s not do it”.
- rexreed 4y ago
  Absolutely agree. Also, how is this firm based in Silicon Valley / San Fran where the customers are primarily in the midwest? If they were serious about this problem, shouldn't they be where their customers or resources are? Building something in isolation and then "shipping" it to where it will be used seems very inefficient and they're clearly missing out on valuable on-the-ground information and experience. This seems more like a university research project than a serious concern?
  - tclancy 4y ago
    Wouldn’t the reverse question then be, why hasn’t someone in the Midwest done this already?
    - sumtechguy 4y ago
      They may have already used that material for something else?
      - seunosewa 4y ago
        Like animal feed. Or tilling it into the soil to increase organic matter.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      There are other companies working on similar things in the Midwest. It is a complex problem that farmers are very interested in because they see potential dollars. https://www.bioenergy-news.com/news/frontline-bioenergys-iowa-pyrolysis-project-progresses/ https://www.bioenergy-news.com/news/frontline-bioenergys-iow... https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2016/12/20/rapid https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2016/12/20/rapid

rexreed 4y ago

Why would you prototype with a material that's substantially different from the real-world item? I read the article and this bit puzzled me. The differences clearly matter, and the $300M bankruptcy they reference in the article even makes that point.

truffdog 4y ago
Probably they want to handle wheat waste and corn waste long term. Seems like there should be plenty of both to go around
liminvorous 4y ago
They want to be able to process both the material they prototyped with and the material they started with (straw) and the material they tried to scale up with (corn cobs), and probably any kind of plant matter that has less structural integrity than say, timber.
pkrein 4y ago
Initial testing was in San Francisco, where corn stover is relatively tricky to come by because corn is not widely grown in California, and agricultural residues cannot be brought into the state because of the bugs. Wheat straw was much easier to procure in-state. Since encountering the differences, we tracked down the rarer corn growers in California and now use corn stover for testing as well.
- rexreed 4y ago
  If corn stover is a critical importance to your business and business model, wouldn't it be more effective, efficient, and beneficial to your business to be where the critical resource and information and experience is? Basically why not move to Kansas instead of stay put in California?
  - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    Come on. No one wants to live in Kansas. And it's extremely difficult to build in a rural setting. You try prototyping an experimental cutting-edge technology in the middle of a corn field 2 hours from the nearest Home Depot or metal fabricator.
    - rexreed 4y ago
      John Deere might find that interesting. Now headquartered in Moline, IL (Iowa border), they started up and built their company exactly in the rural America (Grand Detour, IL), when Home Depot didn't even exist. Yes it was over 150 years ago, but there's nothing that prevents you from starting an agtech company where the resources are if they are in the midwest. The Kauffman Foundation, a major entrepreneurial resource is based in Kansas City, MO.
    - stonemetal12 4y ago
      The wikipedia page for Wichita, Kansas claims Boeing, Airbus, and Learjet among others operate design and manufacturing facilities there. You should be able to find a metal fabricator and a home depot.
    - hinkley 4y ago
      There are less drastic options than Kansas that would work fine. Chicago has an international airport. Indianapolis as well (though it’s not listed in Wikipedia, which makes me wonder how complete that is). St Louis and Minneapolis are major hubs. Large airports besides those I’m less familiar with, but if you’re planning to process corn waste what you need is rail access, not air. So then you can add a lot more of the midwest and still maybe be able to find Bulgogi for lunch. The Quad Cities, Peoria, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Omaha.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ComputerCat 4y ago
Yeah it's definitely a bit peculiar. You'd think they could have done some more research into the makeup of the material they'd be processing, get a good understanding of the needs of the machinery...
carbadtraingood 4y ago
Wheat straw is a common agricultural waste product across the US, and if they can solve processing that they still win. It's not that they tested A for a product that will only process B. They tested A for a product that will eventually process A and B and C and... Scaling up means testing with new inputs at scale. So now they've done that?

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

I’m starting to believe the idea that long term zero percent rates have made MBAs in charge of almost everything completely careless to the historical realities of business where you have a product and process before investing tons into a system. It seems to me that with “endless free money” we miss things like “this one input stream will be a nightmare, let’s not do it”.

rexreed 4y ago
Absolutely agree. Also, how is this firm based in Silicon Valley / San Fran where the customers are primarily in the midwest? If they were serious about this problem, shouldn't they be where their customers or resources are? Building something in isolation and then "shipping" it to where it will be used seems very inefficient and they're clearly missing out on valuable on-the-ground information and experience. This seems more like a university research project than a serious concern?
- tclancy 4y ago
  Wouldn’t the reverse question then be, why hasn’t someone in the Midwest done this already?
  - sumtechguy 4y ago
    They may have already used that material for something else?
    - seunosewa 4y ago
      Like animal feed. Or tilling it into the soil to increase organic matter.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    There are other companies working on similar things in the Midwest. It is a complex problem that farmers are very interested in because they see potential dollars. https://www.bioenergy-news.com/news/frontline-bioenergys-iowa-pyrolysis-project-progresses/ https://www.bioenergy-news.com/news/frontline-bioenergys-iow... https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2016/12/20/rapid https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2016/12/20/rapid