4 ms·

It's a well known problem, so I'm surprised no one thought about it ahead of time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pick

It's a well known problem, so I'm surprised no one thought about it ahead of time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

cratermoon 4y ago
There's also the semi-mythical "Super Bowl Flush" https://news.arizona.edu/story/super-bowls-super-flush-just-super-myth https://news.arizona.edu/story/super-bowls-super-flush-just-...
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Perhaps we should have a national “if it is yellow, let it mellow, if it is brown, flush it down” ad campaign.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Australia has split flush buttons, with a half-size flush possible. Haven't seen many here in the States; might be good to require in new construction.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      They exist, but in my experience are unnecessary. Just adds another component that can break, and saves less water than simply not flushing.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - Jaruzel 4y ago
      UK has those too (is there a European directive for them?) In almost all cases they are shoddily built and break really easily. I miss a proper metal lever based flush.
    - hyperman1 4y ago
      I've found a toilet requiring 4 or 5 flushes before things move. Otherwise they just go merilly around in circles. It has 2 buttons, and a message to push the right button and save the planet. If there exists a hell for toilets, that one belongs down there.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        That's another thing Australia one-ups us on; the toilets are vigorous. None of this slow swirly watch it spin away shit; it's more like an airplane toilet in aggressiveness.
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        You can buy toilets and toilet "tanks" that are pressurized. They are incredible and probably can use less water.
        andrewf 4y ago
        They're washdown toilets. https://www.ortonbaths.com/siphonic-vs-washdown-toilet-better/ https://www.ortonbaths.com/siphonic-vs-washdown-toilet-bette...
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        Ah, thanks! When I remodel I know what to look for.
  - KoftaBob 4y ago
    Yeah very very few people are going to follow that, the vast majority will find the idea disgusting and not nearly beneficial enough to justify it.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Hence the educational ad campaign to inform and inspire change. It is just for the home anyway, not public restrooms. And at the end of the day, even if the vast majority find it disgusting, increasing water/sewage prices will force the change sooner or later.
      - collegeburner 4y ago
        that is so patronizing. you can't "educate" when people find something disgusting and saying that's "educating" is arrogant. like if that's objectively people's preferences you can't say your preference is right and therefore you're "educating" them. and there's good reason, it still smells. so no imma keep flushing it.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Obviously if it smells, you should flush. But in my experience, my urine in the toilet bowl never smells outside of when I eat asparagus. Perhaps it is a sign to drink more water? The education is also about water not being an unlimited resource. I have no idea how educating or reminding people of that is patronizing or arrogant, but to each their own.
        KoftaBob 4y ago
        Sidenote, if I understand correctly, the environmental/resource impact of water usage (outside of droughts) is that treating/filtering water uses electricity, not so much that the water itself is being wasted. Am I on the right track here?
  - brewdad 4y ago
    A toilet flush costs me exactly 1 cent. I'm flushing until the financial incentives change significantly.
hyperpape 4y ago
It does seem like there are a few details that are different, because the thermostats will put sustained load on the grid, whereas the TV pickup will not. That means that a couple of nice technical solutions like adding jitter to the startup times would solve the pickup problem, but not the increased load at 6:00 AM.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  > adding jitter to the startup times would solve the pickup problem There's minimal jitter in people's behavior when they are explicitly synchronized by a television broadcast, and none can be added within the constraints of broadcast television.
  - hyperpape 4y ago
    Of course. I was referring to adding jitter to people's thermostats, which is not a bad idea, but would not solve the entire problem here.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  There's going to be jitter based on your building "resist" insulation in addition to clock jitter. (Esp for non Internet connected) And your hvac sizing and plumbing efficiency determines the jitter too, where there is typically a minimum compressor on and off time of 300s, but the runtime is determined by how quickly it can get to the setpoint. Ecobees whave automatic "staging" configuration, but can be set manually to have have more or less setpoint responsiveness and over cool Max by .5 degree increments

It's a well known problem, so I'm surprised no one thought about it ahead of time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

cratermoon 4y ago

There's also the semi-mythical "Super Bowl Flush" https://news.arizona.edu/story/super-bowls-super-flush-just-super-myth https://news.arizona.edu/story/super-bowls-super-flush-just-...

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Perhaps we should have a national “if it is yellow, let it mellow, if it is brown, flush it down” ad campaign.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Australia has split flush buttons, with a half-size flush possible. Haven't seen many here in the States; might be good to require in new construction.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    They exist, but in my experience are unnecessary. Just adds another component that can break, and saves less water than simply not flushing.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - Jaruzel 4y ago
    UK has those too (is there a European directive for them?) In almost all cases they are shoddily built and break really easily. I miss a proper metal lever based flush.
  - hyperman1 4y ago
    I've found a toilet requiring 4 or 5 flushes before things move. Otherwise they just go merilly around in circles. It has 2 buttons, and a message to push the right button and save the planet. If there exists a hell for toilets, that one belongs down there.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      That's another thing Australia one-ups us on; the toilets are vigorous. None of this slow swirly watch it spin away shit; it's more like an airplane toilet in aggressiveness.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        You can buy toilets and toilet "tanks" that are pressurized. They are incredible and probably can use less water.
      - andrewf 4y ago
        They're washdown toilets. https://www.ortonbaths.com/siphonic-vs-washdown-toilet-better/ https://www.ortonbaths.com/siphonic-vs-washdown-toilet-bette...
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        Ah, thanks! When I remodel I know what to look for.
- KoftaBob 4y ago
  Yeah very very few people are going to follow that, the vast majority will find the idea disgusting and not nearly beneficial enough to justify it.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Hence the educational ad campaign to inform and inspire change. It is just for the home anyway, not public restrooms. And at the end of the day, even if the vast majority find it disgusting, increasing water/sewage prices will force the change sooner or later.
    - collegeburner 4y ago
      that is so patronizing. you can't "educate" when people find something disgusting and saying that's "educating" is arrogant. like if that's objectively people's preferences you can't say your preference is right and therefore you're "educating" them. and there's good reason, it still smells. so no imma keep flushing it.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Obviously if it smells, you should flush. But in my experience, my urine in the toilet bowl never smells outside of when I eat asparagus. Perhaps it is a sign to drink more water? The education is also about water not being an unlimited resource. I have no idea how educating or reminding people of that is patronizing or arrogant, but to each their own.
        KoftaBob 4y ago
        Sidenote, if I understand correctly, the environmental/resource impact of water usage (outside of droughts) is that treating/filtering water uses electricity, not so much that the water itself is being wasted. Am I on the right track here?
- brewdad 4y ago
  A toilet flush costs me exactly 1 cent. I'm flushing until the financial incentives change significantly.

hyperpape 4y ago

It does seem like there are a few details that are different, because the thermostats will put sustained load on the grid, whereas the TV pickup will not. That means that a couple of nice technical solutions like adding jitter to the startup times would solve the pickup problem, but not the increased load at 6:00 AM.

yencabulator 4y ago
> adding jitter to the startup times would solve the pickup problem There's minimal jitter in people's behavior when they are explicitly synchronized by a television broadcast, and none can be added within the constraints of broadcast television.
- hyperpape 4y ago
  Of course. I was referring to adding jitter to people's thermostats, which is not a bad idea, but would not solve the entire problem here.
smileysteve 4y ago
There's going to be jitter based on your building "resist" insulation in addition to clock jitter. (Esp for non Internet connected) And your hvac sizing and plumbing efficiency determines the jitter too, where there is typically a minimum compressor on and off time of 300s, but the runtime is determined by how quickly it can get to the setpoint. Ecobees whave automatic "staging" configuration, but can be set manually to have have more or less setpoint responsiveness and over cool Max by .5 degree increments