5 ms·

I don't think that the bible says that giving to the poor will absolve you of your sins. So maybe not the same coin.

swores 4y ago
Coins usually don't have the exact same thing on each side, just the core value is the same. Which is my being pedantic on the coin side, to point out that pedantry isn't really needed on the metaphorical side.
- protonbob 4y ago
  Right. I would say that these concepts are similar. But "because they're all faces of the same coin" seems to put forth that the two religions are of the same coin which I disagree with.
wyldfire 4y ago
If the reward cited above in Matthew 6 isn't absolution then it is still effectively similar if it's a pleasant afterlife.
- twodave 4y ago
  It isn’t. A primary tenet of Christianity is to identify with Christ, mainly through suffering. Much the way a workout can be rewarding in and of itself (e.g. the runner’s high), the suffering of sacrifice can be its own reward if given in the correct mindset. What makes this possible for the Christian believer is the faith/knowledge that one’s sins have already _been_ absolved, so Heaven has already effectively been attained. So (now having a mindset of gratitude) the Christian believer is free to be charitable without the need for personal gain, for what more could the believer gain? Or what could he/she lose that would stain the gift already received?
  - Dudeman112 4y ago
    >What makes this possible for the Christian believer is the faith/knowledge that one’s sins have already _been_ absolved, so Heaven has already effectively been attained I have yet to meet a Christian believer IRL who has actual faith that their sins have already been absolved so heaven has already effectively been attained Maybe that's more common in other corners of the world? I haven't met many people who actually act as if they know they'll be saved as opposed to hoping they'll be saved
    - twodave 4y ago
      There are entire books of the New Testament devoted to assurance of salvation. I find this sentiment I described commonplace in my area of the world (Florida, US).
  - tsol 4y ago
    So what is the motivator for people to give charity if there is no reward from God? I would have thought there were some sort of reward for charity in Christianity.
    - krapp 4y ago
      Human beings possess empathy and a desire to help the less fortunate entirely apart from religion or its rewards. From a purely utilitarian standpoint, one could argue that the reward of altruistic behavior within a social hierarchy is the strengthening of social bonds and likelihood of reciprocity, and this behavior has been seen in other primate species besides humans, suggesting it has an evolutionary benefit. Unfortunately, thousands of years of religious indoctrination has led many people to believe that humans are essentially amoral sociopaths without religion. But religion doesn't generate morality, ethics or virtue so much as codify them into a culturally specific framework. That said, Jesus commanded his followers to practice charity often and directly linked doing so with gaining rewards in heaven.
    - protonbob 4y ago
      The reward is being in a state of obedience to Christ and his will which is a reward in and of itself.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > So what is the motivator for people to give charity if there is no reward from God? Love of ones fellow man. > I would have thought there were some sort of reward for charity in Christianity. To the extent that there may be, that reward is not generally viewed in most Christian doctrine as the motivator. Christianity is not, predomonantly, doctrinally, transactional in that way. (Transactional personal beliefs are, however, far more common in Christianity than formal doctrine would suggest, and political Christianity frequently invokes a transactional view that is at odds with common doctrine.)
      - tsol 4y ago
        >Love of ones fellow man Hmm interesting. I wonder is love really a motivator? It's more of a reason, right? "I give charity because I love my fellow man". I feel like that's not inclusive. Like what about people who don't love their fellow man all that much? I mean is that even allowed?-- If I'm a Christian do I have to love my fellow man to the point of charity? What if I call myself Christian but I think most people are rude and selfish and have a hard time loving them.. does that make me not Christian? I'm sure there are people who are Christian and have a hard time loving humanity, seems like they would be not included. I suppose the reward aspect still applies so it makes sense for everyone. I like the idea, it's very philosophically pure. But I'm surprised it actually works in real life. It seems to me like that would encompass only a minority. Maybe that's more a reflection of the times we're in than anything else. Hope you don't mind the probing questions-- I'm not trying to poke holes in these beliefs I'm just trying to understand them completely
unholythree 4y ago
I think people down voted this thinking it’s pedantic, but there is a pretty significant distinction theologically between this Quran passage and the biblical description of how sins are forgiven. Although both books do encourage secret charity.
curiousgal 4y ago
Well even though it says that, the concept of absolution (at least as far as I know, I am not religious anymore) does not exist in Islam. It's more as in doing good things would cancel out some of your sins, but not omit them completely.

Coins usually don't have the exact same thing on each side, just the core value is the same. Which is my being pedantic on the coin side, to point out that pedantry isn't really needed on the metaphorical side.

protonbob 4y ago
Right. I would say that these concepts are similar. But "because they're all faces of the same coin" seems to put forth that the two religions are of the same coin which I disagree with.

wyldfire 4y ago

If the reward cited above in Matthew 6 isn't absolution then it is still effectively similar if it's a pleasant afterlife.

twodave 4y ago
It isn’t. A primary tenet of Christianity is to identify with Christ, mainly through suffering. Much the way a workout can be rewarding in and of itself (e.g. the runner’s high), the suffering of sacrifice can be its own reward if given in the correct mindset. What makes this possible for the Christian believer is the faith/knowledge that one’s sins have already _been_ absolved, so Heaven has already effectively been attained. So (now having a mindset of gratitude) the Christian believer is free to be charitable without the need for personal gain, for what more could the believer gain? Or what could he/she lose that would stain the gift already received?
- Dudeman112 4y ago
  >What makes this possible for the Christian believer is the faith/knowledge that one’s sins have already _been_ absolved, so Heaven has already effectively been attained I have yet to meet a Christian believer IRL who has actual faith that their sins have already been absolved so heaven has already effectively been attained Maybe that's more common in other corners of the world? I haven't met many people who actually act as if they know they'll be saved as opposed to hoping they'll be saved
  - twodave 4y ago
    There are entire books of the New Testament devoted to assurance of salvation. I find this sentiment I described commonplace in my area of the world (Florida, US).
- tsol 4y ago
  So what is the motivator for people to give charity if there is no reward from God? I would have thought there were some sort of reward for charity in Christianity.
  - krapp 4y ago
    Human beings possess empathy and a desire to help the less fortunate entirely apart from religion or its rewards. From a purely utilitarian standpoint, one could argue that the reward of altruistic behavior within a social hierarchy is the strengthening of social bonds and likelihood of reciprocity, and this behavior has been seen in other primate species besides humans, suggesting it has an evolutionary benefit. Unfortunately, thousands of years of religious indoctrination has led many people to believe that humans are essentially amoral sociopaths without religion. But religion doesn't generate morality, ethics or virtue so much as codify them into a culturally specific framework. That said, Jesus commanded his followers to practice charity often and directly linked doing so with gaining rewards in heaven.
  - protonbob 4y ago
    The reward is being in a state of obedience to Christ and his will which is a reward in and of itself.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > So what is the motivator for people to give charity if there is no reward from God? Love of ones fellow man. > I would have thought there were some sort of reward for charity in Christianity. To the extent that there may be, that reward is not generally viewed in most Christian doctrine as the motivator. Christianity is not, predomonantly, doctrinally, transactional in that way. (Transactional personal beliefs are, however, far more common in Christianity than formal doctrine would suggest, and political Christianity frequently invokes a transactional view that is at odds with common doctrine.)
    - tsol 4y ago
      >Love of ones fellow man Hmm interesting. I wonder is love really a motivator? It's more of a reason, right? "I give charity because I love my fellow man". I feel like that's not inclusive. Like what about people who don't love their fellow man all that much? I mean is that even allowed?-- If I'm a Christian do I have to love my fellow man to the point of charity? What if I call myself Christian but I think most people are rude and selfish and have a hard time loving them.. does that make me not Christian? I'm sure there are people who are Christian and have a hard time loving humanity, seems like they would be not included. I suppose the reward aspect still applies so it makes sense for everyone. I like the idea, it's very philosophically pure. But I'm surprised it actually works in real life. It seems to me like that would encompass only a minority. Maybe that's more a reflection of the times we're in than anything else. Hope you don't mind the probing questions-- I'm not trying to poke holes in these beliefs I'm just trying to understand them completely

unholythree 4y ago

I think people down voted this thinking it’s pedantic, but there is a pretty significant distinction theologically between this Quran passage and the biblical description of how sins are forgiven. Although both books do encourage secret charity.

curiousgal 4y ago

Well even though it says that, the concept of absolution (at least as far as I know, I am not religious anymore) does not exist in Islam. It's more as in doing good things would cancel out some of your sins, but not omit them completely.