4 ms·

This again. They’re not giving you the heating hardware for free. They’re selling you the heated seats and then selling you the ability to turn them on separa

by Lio 4y ago

This again. They’re not giving you the heating hardware for free. They’re selling you the heated seats and then selling you the ability to turn them on separately. Not to mention the arbitrage opportunities. BMW are now the only car dealer network that can trade cars back without features and then add them in for no cost before they go back out on sale. ...or turn them off and get used car buyer to pay for them yet again. Rent seeking MBA fuckers. The only hope is that the market punishes them. The problem is that if every company does this then they act as a cartel and stop the market working correctly.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Biologist123 4y ago
> Rent seeking MBA fuckers. T-shirt slogan.
- tchock23 4y ago
  Or a new Radiohead lyric
betwixthewires 4y ago
BMW isn't the only company doing this, Tesla actually began all this by building one hardware platform for manufacturing simplicity and then locking the functionality behind software paywalls. Several other car companies have since done things like this with their entertainment units, remote start and the like. It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. If a product is pure software, fine, but if it's hardware I bought and it won't work without some specific software the manufacturer should enable me to use it with my own software.
- dash2 4y ago
  > It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. OK, I'll bite. Why? This is a free transaction between two parties, why should it be banned? (There are several possible answers, I'm just interested which one motivates your comment.)
  - this_was_posted 4y ago
    For me it's because ownership should mean true ownership, just like how you should be allowed to repair your own devices if you want.
    - mavhc 4y ago
      Don't buy a closed source car
      - selfhoster11 4y ago
        Great. Point me to the next closest open source/hardware car that's not a jalopy, is road-worthy and crash-safe, is globally available, and that doesn't cost 2x the retail price of a "consumer" car.
        mavhc 4y ago
        How many closed source cars are approved for every country on Earth?
        selfhoster11 4y ago
        The point isn't that a particular closed source car is available, but that there are always a few locally-available models that do the basic things well no matter where you are in the world. With open source cars, this is unlikely.
        4y ago
- asiachick 4y ago
  Tesla wasn't the first. I don't know who was but I know the differences in many printers are software only. The differences in many GPUs (Nvidia Quadro vs non-Quadro) are just drivers. I don't know where to draw the line. I hated that Tesla has a (pay $2k for a software upgrade for acceleration). Imagine it will escalate. Pay $1k to get your air-conditioner to 60f otherwise it stops at 68f. Pay $3k to turn 15 degrees sharper. Pay $1.5k for your defrosters to work twice as fast. On the other hand, my phones, computers, and game machines, all came with no software and I pay for apps and Apple in particular has made it popular to pay for individual features inside an app. Download a photo editing app and it will be $2 for the blur feature, $2 for the tilt-shift feature, or $10 for all features... though now it's escalated to $XX per year on most iOS apps that have top end features. I don't know how to feel about it. I used to pay ~$50 a year for photoshop (upgrading every other version for $200). Now I pay $120 a year. I mean, I like the idea of paying once but the truth is, for software I actually used, I'd pay for upgrades, even if only to get the software working on the latest OS version.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    > The differences in many GPUs (Nvidia Quadro vs non-Quadro) are just drivers. Are they? I mean, the GPU might be the same, and it might run with Quadro drivers, but the board might be different (cooling, power management, etc)
TAForObvReasons 4y ago
Tesla discussed doing this last year: https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-heated-steering-wheel-soon-paid-ota-software-update/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-hea... They had paid range upgrade in 2016: https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-software-locked-features/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-softwar... Yet it seems the market gave Tesla a pass?
- gruturo 4y ago
  The price of a 60KWh Model S was substantially lower than the price of a 75KWh one, and Tesla had economies of scale by just building 75KWh packs and using them everywhere. It was not an unreasonable value proposition for the end user, but most importantly it was a single one-off payment. It's the monthly cost which really annoys me in the BMW case. Literally rent seeking. There is no justification whatsoever for a monthly fee for a heated seat, there is no back-end to run and maintain (other than what they build explicitly to make the rent a possibility, and fuck that).
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
I wonder how long before CAN bus dongles that unlock 'locked' functionality appear for sale.
- HyprMusic 4y ago
  You can already unlock spec features (called VO codes) in BMWs with a $20 dongle, some pirated dealer software and a simple YouTube video. Maybe they will introduce stronger protections but enabling features you didn't spec in a BMW is already a very common and easy thing to do. The only difference is now you don't need to scavenge the hardware from a breaker's yard.
- sligor 4y ago
  I wonder how long before car companies convince law makers that "unlocking heated seat" impacts critical safety of the car and voids insurance in case of accident.
- semi-extrinsic 4y ago
  Oh, we've been there for decades. My old 2001 Peugeot 307 was sold without the "driving computer" - the function where you could click a button and cycle through fuel consumption/range/speed on the small display. It was a popular mod to retrofit the appropriate button (the wires were still there) and to have someone with access to Peugeot Planet activate the driving computer feature.
travbrack 4y ago
Is it rent seeking when people have a choice? There are plenty of car brands that don't do this garbage.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the other manufacturer are just waiting to see how this pans out before adding their own spin.
  - stu432 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure the end state here is that you just have a car-as-a-service. Now you can use the same car for someone who wants premium as someone who wants basic. After all, you will own nothing and be happy.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Given how much regulation is out there to make car road-legal... It's barely open market.
HyprMusic 4y ago
The heated seat hardware isn't expensive, the blocks can be bought for about $15/chair second hand on their e90 range. I highly doubt it costs BMW any more than a couple of months of the rental cost and I strongly suspect over the life of a car they will get at least a couple of months rent and justify the cost. I, for one, welcome this change. BMW makes retrofit kits for everything because they know people want features that aren't in their spec and they're very expensive. I buy old, second hand cars and I'm at the mercy of the original buyer when it comes to features included. This way, not only do I get the option of a feature that was never bought, but I can enable it only for the couple of months I'd actually need it. Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can.
- Tildey 4y ago
  Bold of you to assume they will still have the working cloud infrastructure for you to enable that in 20 years
  - HyprMusic 4y ago
    That's not how it currently works. The car's spec is stored on a central database and set in the specific modules when the car is first produced. You only lose the customised VO codes when you update a module (not a common thing to do, even for car modders) but even then you can often convince a dealer to add your retrofit's VO code to the central database. I strongly suspect that the subscription will piggy-back off of this infrastructure and the subscription will set/unset the VO codes. BMW are fantastic with parts and supporting older car maintenance. Even now I can order 20 year old parts (including electronic modules) new from BMW.
- rlpb 4y ago
  > Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can. The problem comes when the manufacturer starts demanding legal "protection" against people hacking their own possessions, or sharing technical information about their possessions.
  - 4y ago

by Lio 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Biologist123 4y ago

> Rent seeking MBA fuckers. T-shirt slogan.

tchock23 4y ago
Or a new Radiohead lyric

betwixthewires 4y ago

BMW isn't the only company doing this, Tesla actually began all this by building one hardware platform for manufacturing simplicity and then locking the functionality behind software paywalls. Several other car companies have since done things like this with their entertainment units, remote start and the like. It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. If a product is pure software, fine, but if it's hardware I bought and it won't work without some specific software the manufacturer should enable me to use it with my own software.

dash2 4y ago
> It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. OK, I'll bite. Why? This is a free transaction between two parties, why should it be banned? (There are several possible answers, I'm just interested which one motivates your comment.)
- this_was_posted 4y ago
  For me it's because ownership should mean true ownership, just like how you should be allowed to repair your own devices if you want.
  - mavhc 4y ago
    Don't buy a closed source car
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      Great. Point me to the next closest open source/hardware car that's not a jalopy, is road-worthy and crash-safe, is globally available, and that doesn't cost 2x the retail price of a "consumer" car.
      - mavhc 4y ago
        How many closed source cars are approved for every country on Earth?
        selfhoster11 4y ago
        The point isn't that a particular closed source car is available, but that there are always a few locally-available models that do the basic things well no matter where you are in the world. With open source cars, this is unlikely.
        4y ago
asiachick 4y ago
Tesla wasn't the first. I don't know who was but I know the differences in many printers are software only. The differences in many GPUs (Nvidia Quadro vs non-Quadro) are just drivers. I don't know where to draw the line. I hated that Tesla has a (pay $2k for a software upgrade for acceleration). Imagine it will escalate. Pay $1k to get your air-conditioner to 60f otherwise it stops at 68f. Pay $3k to turn 15 degrees sharper. Pay $1.5k for your defrosters to work twice as fast. On the other hand, my phones, computers, and game machines, all came with no software and I pay for apps and Apple in particular has made it popular to pay for individual features inside an app. Download a photo editing app and it will be $2 for the blur feature, $2 for the tilt-shift feature, or $10 for all features... though now it's escalated to $XX per year on most iOS apps that have top end features. I don't know how to feel about it. I used to pay ~$50 a year for photoshop (upgrading every other version for $200). Now I pay $120 a year. I mean, I like the idea of paying once but the truth is, for software I actually used, I'd pay for upgrades, even if only to get the software working on the latest OS version.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > The differences in many GPUs (Nvidia Quadro vs non-Quadro) are just drivers. Are they? I mean, the GPU might be the same, and it might run with Quadro drivers, but the board might be different (cooling, power management, etc)

TAForObvReasons 4y ago

Tesla discussed doing this last year: https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-heated-steering-wheel-soon-paid-ota-software-update/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-hea... They had paid range upgrade in 2016: https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-software-locked-features/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-softwar... Yet it seems the market gave Tesla a pass?

gruturo 4y ago
The price of a 60KWh Model S was substantially lower than the price of a 75KWh one, and Tesla had economies of scale by just building 75KWh packs and using them everywhere. It was not an unreasonable value proposition for the end user, but most importantly it was a single one-off payment. It's the monthly cost which really annoys me in the BMW case. Literally rent seeking. There is no justification whatsoever for a monthly fee for a heated seat, there is no back-end to run and maintain (other than what they build explicitly to make the rent a possibility, and fuck that).

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

I wonder how long before CAN bus dongles that unlock 'locked' functionality appear for sale.

HyprMusic 4y ago
You can already unlock spec features (called VO codes) in BMWs with a $20 dongle, some pirated dealer software and a simple YouTube video. Maybe they will introduce stronger protections but enabling features you didn't spec in a BMW is already a very common and easy thing to do. The only difference is now you don't need to scavenge the hardware from a breaker's yard.
sligor 4y ago
I wonder how long before car companies convince law makers that "unlocking heated seat" impacts critical safety of the car and voids insurance in case of accident.
semi-extrinsic 4y ago
Oh, we've been there for decades. My old 2001 Peugeot 307 was sold without the "driving computer" - the function where you could click a button and cycle through fuel consumption/range/speed on the small display. It was a popular mod to retrofit the appropriate button (the wires were still there) and to have someone with access to Peugeot Planet activate the driving computer feature.

travbrack 4y ago

Is it rent seeking when people have a choice? There are plenty of car brands that don't do this garbage.

Ygg2 4y ago
I'm pretty sure the other manufacturer are just waiting to see how this pans out before adding their own spin.
- stu432 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the end state here is that you just have a car-as-a-service. Now you can use the same car for someone who wants premium as someone who wants basic. After all, you will own nothing and be happy.

dzhiurgis 4y ago

Given how much regulation is out there to make car road-legal... It's barely open market.

HyprMusic 4y ago

The heated seat hardware isn't expensive, the blocks can be bought for about $15/chair second hand on their e90 range. I highly doubt it costs BMW any more than a couple of months of the rental cost and I strongly suspect over the life of a car they will get at least a couple of months rent and justify the cost. I, for one, welcome this change. BMW makes retrofit kits for everything because they know people want features that aren't in their spec and they're very expensive. I buy old, second hand cars and I'm at the mercy of the original buyer when it comes to features included. This way, not only do I get the option of a feature that was never bought, but I can enable it only for the couple of months I'd actually need it. Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can.

Tildey 4y ago
Bold of you to assume they will still have the working cloud infrastructure for you to enable that in 20 years
- HyprMusic 4y ago
  That's not how it currently works. The car's spec is stored on a central database and set in the specific modules when the car is first produced. You only lose the customised VO codes when you update a module (not a common thing to do, even for car modders) but even then you can often convince a dealer to add your retrofit's VO code to the central database. I strongly suspect that the subscription will piggy-back off of this infrastructure and the subscription will set/unset the VO codes. BMW are fantastic with parts and supporting older car maintenance. Even now I can order 20 year old parts (including electronic modules) new from BMW.
rlpb 4y ago
> Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can. The problem comes when the manufacturer starts demanding legal "protection" against people hacking their own possessions, or sharing technical information about their possessions.
- 4y ago