17 ms·

World's oldest tree still growing near the Norwegian-Swedish border

239 points by Manheim 4y ago

jimhefferon 4y ago
Did other people think before clicking on the link "I really hope they don't say where it is or provide a picture, because someone is sure to go find it and chop it down"? Has the Internet ruined me?
- etiam 4y ago
  Quite similar, yes. I went to comments precisely to say I really wish they'd stop bringing mass Internet attention to vulnerable wonders of nature like these. It places them in terrible danger. The sadist with an axe is definitely a real threat as has been seen repeatedly, but even if not, the stampede of a selfie-crowd is a danger in itself for something like this. There are ancient plants that have had life-threatening damage from suddenly having unreasonable numbers of people clinging on them for photos and wearing down the grown all the way through the roots. I certainly don't want to see this sort of reporting just to fill space during a news drought.
- TrickyRick 4y ago
  The tree has a website (The website honors the age of the tree by also looking like something prehistoric) [1], information about it and its location is readily available on the national park's website [2], it has a Wikipedia article [3], and of course it's on Google Maps. So I don't really think this article provides anything new. [1]: http://www.oldtjikko.se/OldTjikkoFulufjallet.html http://www.oldtjikko.se/OldTjikkoFulufjallet.html [2]: https://www.sverigesnationalparker.se/park/fulufjallets-nationalpark/upplevelser/varldens-aldsta-trad/ https://www.sverigesnationalparker.se/park/fulufjallets-nati... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko
hinkley 4y ago
Had to read this in reader mode because while the text of the article was in English, the cookie pop up was in what I’m guessing is Norwegian, and covered most of the space where the text is. Who does that?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tgv 4y ago
  Trolls, of course!
  - kebman 4y ago
    They will come and eat your cookie!
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Speaking of trolls and Norway, if you have never seen André Øvredal‘s Trollhunter, you should find a copy. Easily one of my top five film festival discoveries, and generally well received by anyone I’ve shown it to. The setup is a bunch of journalism students trying to do an expose on a man who they believe is a bear poacher, and then it’s down the rabbit hole for another hour.
- zrobotics 4y ago
  Every news source on the planet it seems. This source didn't localize to your language (I had the same frustration), but every website seems to do this, this one just didn't localize the cookie prompt. Not going to lie, it seems a bit presumptuous to expect that a local Norwegian source has every aspect of their site optimized for English readers. Aside from the Norwegian text, it was a standard cookie click-through. Edit: this reads hostile, I mainly want to point out that not every site online is in English and expecting that shouldn't be the norm. I've read excellent Chinese only articles through translation services, it seems unfair to expect everyone to default to English to share their knowledge. Especially now with AI translation being a thing, it seems unfair to criticize a local news source for focusing on their local language. Reading non-English sites is easier now than ever, and translation errors are worth being able to read about more of the world's ideas. There are ideas that don't spread to the wider web simply because the author wrote them in their native language. When it's so easy to get a machine translation that isn't perfect but is serviceable, I have trouble complaining about language issues.
vesinisa 4y ago
That title is rather clickbaity for a "science" magazine. Crucially, the tree prominently featured in the large picture is not 10,000 years old and only its root system originates from that period: > Today Old Tjikko’s tree trunk is only five metres high. Although the spruce may have had many such trunks over the millennia, the tree's root system has survived all these years. No part of today’s living tree is as old as 9 500 years, but genetically, the tree is exactly the same individual as when it began to germinate. Indeed if we allow equating the plant to the age and extent of its root system (genetically the same organism, although no part of the present plant is as old), I already found this other tree root system named "Pando" in Utah, USA, that is estimated to be up to 14,000 years old - making the Swedish spruce's claim to world's oldest dubious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) Pando is also thought to be the largest and heaviest known single organism, covering 43 hectares and weighing 6,000 tons.
- kebman 4y ago
  Crucially the tree is in Sweden and not Norway xD
- __alexs 4y ago
  What is a "tree"? None of the leaves on Methuselah are 5000 years old, but we say that the tree is that old. Kind of a Tree of Theseus situation going on.
  - beanjuice 4y ago
    You are 10 years old, I am also 10 years old. We are all 10 years old. [10] [10] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/your-body-is-younger-than-you-think.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/your-body-is-youn...
    - vesinisa 4y ago
      While its true that most cells in our body replace once about seven years, humans do have e.g. neuron cells that are about as old as the individual: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/does-body-replace-itself-seven-years/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/does-body-replace-itself-s...
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
> No part of today’s living tree is as old as 9 500 years, but genetically, the tree is exactly the same individual as when it began to germinate. It looks like we've found a Theseus tree!
joosters 4y ago
Birds migrate over winters. Spruce trees migrate over ice ages...
kebman 4y ago
Just to be clear, the tree is found in Dalarna in Sweden, though this is indeed East of Trysil in Norway. Since Sciencenorway.no (!) is a Norwegian outlet, they need to at least attempt to make their articles relevant for Norway. The outlet is the English version of Forskning.no. Forskning means research in Norwegian, but in this instance it really means science. Their focus is to bring news about what Norwegian scientists are up to with popular science articles for the masses. That's why some of their articles seem a tad tabloid at times. The tradition in Norway is that the most tabloid articles are published during the main summer vacation, when newspapers employ interns and temp journalists. We even have a word for such articles: Agurknytt. It means cucumber news, and implies that the article is desperately trying to make news out of something that isn't.
- zrobotics 4y ago
  So equivalent to popular science for the US crowd. I'm curious, why 'cucumber' news? Just due to the harvest time of the plant, or is there some cultural significance to the term?
  - soegaard 4y ago
    "Cucumber time" is the season, where news paper doesn't have anything to report on than cucumbers. http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-cuc2.htm http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-cuc2.htm https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agurketid https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agurketid
    - severine 4y ago
      Other examples would be, according to Wikipedia, "silly season" in english, "serpiente de verano" (summer snake) in spanish, "Sommerloch" in german, and a bunch of others. Very common phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_season https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_season
    - LeonM 4y ago
      In Dutch it is "komkommertijd" [0], which also literally translates to "cucumber time". It has the exact same meaning. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komkommertijd https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komkommertijd
CalRobert 4y ago
If you happen to be in California and want to see the oldest non-clonal trees in the world, visit the Bristlecone Pines in the white mountains near Mammoth. But maybe do it soon... https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-06-27/drought-and-bark-beetles-now-threaten-earths-oldest-trees https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-06-27/drought...
- throwaway742 4y ago
  sad
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Proven 4y ago
bencollier49 4y ago
This blew my mind. Gives an idea of the timescales we're talking about: "The reason why Old Tjikko now finds itself on the barren rock near Trysil – more than a hundred metres higher than what is considered the tree line – is simply that the spruce tree rose along with the mountain it grows on during the land uplift that followed the ice age."
- q1w2 4y ago
  The article conflates two phenomena... 1. The uplift of the land after the glacier melt. 2. The fact that spruces "multiply" by spreading out their roots and can thereby migrate over centuries. The 2nd point sort of dances on the definition of "reproduction" and "individual". Genetically this tree is identical to it's original "cloned parent" from 9500 years ago, but there are also "other?" spruce trees lower down the mountain along the tree line that are it's "siblings?"/"self?" - now detached from one another. That's the thing with nature - it doesn't always follow definitions we place on it. net-net, this isn't quite the same as finding a tree that's individually born and still 10000 years old.
- bcbrown 4y ago
  For the bristlecone pines in California and Nevada, a primary cause of death for old trees is that erosion slowly exposes their root system over time until it kills them. So in a sense, they can outlive the mountains they grow upon.
davidspiess 4y ago
I recently watched a german documentary "Das geheime Leben der Bäume" [1] where they visit this exact tree. Highly recommend it. The documentary is based on a novel of the same name by the author Peter Wohlleben [2]. [1]: https://www.3sat.de/film/dokumentarfilm/das-geheime-leben-der-baeume-104.html https://www.3sat.de/film/dokumentarfilm/das-geheime-leben-de... [2]: https://www.amazon.de/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate-Discoveries/dp/1771642483 https://www.amazon.de/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate-Discover...
Graffur 4y ago
What is the rule with Cookie notices bring in a different language? Strangely, this is the first one I have come across not in English.
BLO716 4y ago
Reminds me of a story of Donal Rusk Currey and his unfortunate undoing while doing his job. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-one-man-accidentally-killed-the-oldest-tree-ever-125764872/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-one-man-accide... One last note, as I've been to The Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in recent years, it's an AMAZING panacea of views up high as the eye can see. I THINK you can see almost all of the Sierra Nevada across the valley in a couple points, and its breath taking how beautiful it is. Worth visiting, but as a short fat white guy in technology - be ready for the thin air, and absolutely grueling hikes if you explore. It's SOOOO worth it for anyone in the Bay Area to make this trek.
wohfab 4y ago
Isn't the "oldest tree" always "still growing", until it doesn't grow? Then it's dead? Then it's not the oldest tree anymore?
- hobo_in_library 4y ago
  In other news, the oldest human alive is still aging!
throw0101a 4y ago
There's a list: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees
breindog 4y ago
Absolutely wild to see the surrounding land "grow" this spruce 1000 meters above the typical tree line in the region.

239 points by Manheim 4y ago

Did other people think before clicking on the link "I really hope they don't say where it is or provide a picture, because someone is sure to go find it and chop it down"? Has the Internet ruined me?

etiam 4y ago
Quite similar, yes. I went to comments precisely to say I really wish they'd stop bringing mass Internet attention to vulnerable wonders of nature like these. It places them in terrible danger. The sadist with an axe is definitely a real threat as has been seen repeatedly, but even if not, the stampede of a selfie-crowd is a danger in itself for something like this. There are ancient plants that have had life-threatening damage from suddenly having unreasonable numbers of people clinging on them for photos and wearing down the grown all the way through the roots. I certainly don't want to see this sort of reporting just to fill space during a news drought.
TrickyRick 4y ago
The tree has a website (The website honors the age of the tree by also looking like something prehistoric) [1], information about it and its location is readily available on the national park's website [2], it has a Wikipedia article [3], and of course it's on Google Maps. So I don't really think this article provides anything new. [1]: http://www.oldtjikko.se/OldTjikkoFulufjallet.html http://www.oldtjikko.se/OldTjikkoFulufjallet.html [2]: https://www.sverigesnationalparker.se/park/fulufjallets-nationalpark/upplevelser/varldens-aldsta-trad/ https://www.sverigesnationalparker.se/park/fulufjallets-nati... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko

hinkley 4y ago

Had to read this in reader mode because while the text of the article was in English, the cookie pop up was in what I’m guessing is Norwegian, and covered most of the space where the text is. Who does that?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tgv 4y ago
Trolls, of course!
- kebman 4y ago
  They will come and eat your cookie!
- hinkley 4y ago
  Speaking of trolls and Norway, if you have never seen André Øvredal‘s Trollhunter, you should find a copy. Easily one of my top five film festival discoveries, and generally well received by anyone I’ve shown it to. The setup is a bunch of journalism students trying to do an expose on a man who they believe is a bear poacher, and then it’s down the rabbit hole for another hour.
zrobotics 4y ago
Every news source on the planet it seems. This source didn't localize to your language (I had the same frustration), but every website seems to do this, this one just didn't localize the cookie prompt. Not going to lie, it seems a bit presumptuous to expect that a local Norwegian source has every aspect of their site optimized for English readers. Aside from the Norwegian text, it was a standard cookie click-through. Edit: this reads hostile, I mainly want to point out that not every site online is in English and expecting that shouldn't be the norm. I've read excellent Chinese only articles through translation services, it seems unfair to expect everyone to default to English to share their knowledge. Especially now with AI translation being a thing, it seems unfair to criticize a local news source for focusing on their local language. Reading non-English sites is easier now than ever, and translation errors are worth being able to read about more of the world's ideas. There are ideas that don't spread to the wider web simply because the author wrote them in their native language. When it's so easy to get a machine translation that isn't perfect but is serviceable, I have trouble complaining about language issues.

vesinisa 4y ago

That title is rather clickbaity for a "science" magazine. Crucially, the tree prominently featured in the large picture is not 10,000 years old and only its root system originates from that period: > Today Old Tjikko’s tree trunk is only five metres high. Although the spruce may have had many such trunks over the millennia, the tree's root system has survived all these years. No part of today’s living tree is as old as 9 500 years, but genetically, the tree is exactly the same individual as when it began to germinate. Indeed if we allow equating the plant to the age and extent of its root system (genetically the same organism, although no part of the present plant is as old), I already found this other tree root system named "Pando" in Utah, USA, that is estimated to be up to 14,000 years old - making the Swedish spruce's claim to world's oldest dubious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) Pando is also thought to be the largest and heaviest known single organism, covering 43 hectares and weighing 6,000 tons.

kebman 4y ago
Crucially the tree is in Sweden and not Norway xD
__alexs 4y ago
What is a "tree"? None of the leaves on Methuselah are 5000 years old, but we say that the tree is that old. Kind of a Tree of Theseus situation going on.
- beanjuice 4y ago
  You are 10 years old, I am also 10 years old. We are all 10 years old. [10] [10] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/your-body-is-younger-than-you-think.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/your-body-is-youn...
  - vesinisa 4y ago
    While its true that most cells in our body replace once about seven years, humans do have e.g. neuron cells that are about as old as the individual: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/does-body-replace-itself-seven-years/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/does-body-replace-itself-s...

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

> No part of today’s living tree is as old as 9 500 years, but genetically, the tree is exactly the same individual as when it began to germinate. It looks like we've found a Theseus tree!

joosters 4y ago

Birds migrate over winters. Spruce trees migrate over ice ages...

kebman 4y ago

Just to be clear, the tree is found in Dalarna in Sweden, though this is indeed East of Trysil in Norway. Since Sciencenorway.no (!) is a Norwegian outlet, they need to at least attempt to make their articles relevant for Norway. The outlet is the English version of Forskning.no. Forskning means research in Norwegian, but in this instance it really means science. Their focus is to bring news about what Norwegian scientists are up to with popular science articles for the masses. That's why some of their articles seem a tad tabloid at times. The tradition in Norway is that the most tabloid articles are published during the main summer vacation, when newspapers employ interns and temp journalists. We even have a word for such articles: Agurknytt. It means cucumber news, and implies that the article is desperately trying to make news out of something that isn't.

zrobotics 4y ago
So equivalent to popular science for the US crowd. I'm curious, why 'cucumber' news? Just due to the harvest time of the plant, or is there some cultural significance to the term?
- soegaard 4y ago
  "Cucumber time" is the season, where news paper doesn't have anything to report on than cucumbers. http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-cuc2.htm http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-cuc2.htm https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agurketid https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agurketid
  - severine 4y ago
    Other examples would be, according to Wikipedia, "silly season" in english, "serpiente de verano" (summer snake) in spanish, "Sommerloch" in german, and a bunch of others. Very common phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_season https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_season
  - LeonM 4y ago
    In Dutch it is "komkommertijd" [0], which also literally translates to "cucumber time". It has the exact same meaning. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komkommertijd https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komkommertijd

CalRobert 4y ago

If you happen to be in California and want to see the oldest non-clonal trees in the world, visit the Bristlecone Pines in the white mountains near Mammoth. But maybe do it soon... https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-06-27/drought-and-bark-beetles-now-threaten-earths-oldest-trees https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-06-27/drought...

throwaway742 4y ago
sad

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Proven 4y ago

bencollier49 4y ago

This blew my mind. Gives an idea of the timescales we're talking about: "The reason why Old Tjikko now finds itself on the barren rock near Trysil – more than a hundred metres higher than what is considered the tree line – is simply that the spruce tree rose along with the mountain it grows on during the land uplift that followed the ice age."

q1w2 4y ago
The article conflates two phenomena... 1. The uplift of the land after the glacier melt. 2. The fact that spruces "multiply" by spreading out their roots and can thereby migrate over centuries. The 2nd point sort of dances on the definition of "reproduction" and "individual". Genetically this tree is identical to it's original "cloned parent" from 9500 years ago, but there are also "other?" spruce trees lower down the mountain along the tree line that are it's "siblings?"/"self?" - now detached from one another. That's the thing with nature - it doesn't always follow definitions we place on it. net-net, this isn't quite the same as finding a tree that's individually born and still 10000 years old.
bcbrown 4y ago
For the bristlecone pines in California and Nevada, a primary cause of death for old trees is that erosion slowly exposes their root system over time until it kills them. So in a sense, they can outlive the mountains they grow upon.

davidspiess 4y ago

I recently watched a german documentary "Das geheime Leben der Bäume" [1] where they visit this exact tree. Highly recommend it. The documentary is based on a novel of the same name by the author Peter Wohlleben [2]. [1]: https://www.3sat.de/film/dokumentarfilm/das-geheime-leben-der-baeume-104.html https://www.3sat.de/film/dokumentarfilm/das-geheime-leben-de... [2]: https://www.amazon.de/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate-Discoveries/dp/1771642483 https://www.amazon.de/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate-Discover...

Graffur 4y ago

What is the rule with Cookie notices bring in a different language? Strangely, this is the first one I have come across not in English.

BLO716 4y ago

Reminds me of a story of Donal Rusk Currey and his unfortunate undoing while doing his job. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-one-man-accidentally-killed-the-oldest-tree-ever-125764872/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-one-man-accide... One last note, as I've been to The Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in recent years, it's an AMAZING panacea of views up high as the eye can see. I THINK you can see almost all of the Sierra Nevada across the valley in a couple points, and its breath taking how beautiful it is. Worth visiting, but as a short fat white guy in technology - be ready for the thin air, and absolutely grueling hikes if you explore. It's SOOOO worth it for anyone in the Bay Area to make this trek.

wohfab 4y ago

Isn't the "oldest tree" always "still growing", until it doesn't grow? Then it's dead? Then it's not the oldest tree anymore?

hobo_in_library 4y ago
In other news, the oldest human alive is still aging!

throw0101a 4y ago

There's a list: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees

breindog 4y ago

Absolutely wild to see the surrounding land "grow" this spruce 1000 meters above the typical tree line in the region.