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Your question was "How did the 13th amendment codify slavery?" They answered it, the first mention of slavery in the constitution legalized it for convicts in t

Your question was "How did the 13th amendment codify slavery?" They answered it, the first mention of slavery in the constitution legalized it for convicts in the 13th Amendment. Why are you now changing your argument to "they deserve slavery?" Didn't you just say the Civil War ended slavery?

kthielen 4y ago
No I’m not changing my question, but I think this gets to the misunderstanding that there must be in rejecting the idea that the 13th amendment ended slavery. We didn’t fight the civil war to end the concept of incarceration for duly convicted lawbreakers. It’s pretty easy to understand and accept that right? And the people who fought the civil war believed that they were doing it to end slavery. So perhaps your definition of slavery is inconsistent with theirs, and also out of step with the letter of the law.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  Incarceration isn't slavery, we could still have prison without treating people like property. And again, the 13th Amendment is the first time slavery was mentioned and it explicitly allowed some form of it. Maybe the Civil War vets were fine with that, but the amendment still codified slavery.
- shadowofneptune 4y ago
  https://theconversation.com/prison-records-from-1800s-georgia-show-mass-incarcerations-racially-charged-beginnings-96612 https://theconversation.com/prison-records-from-1800s-georgi... Across the US but most flagrantly in the deep south, you see huge spikes in the black prison population starting after the civil war. Many were contracted out to mines, farms, etc. Conditions were poor, many died in that labor. There's little else it can be called once you move out of the abstract.
- beebmam 4y ago
  I think there's a big difference between Chattel slavery, and the kind of slavery that the 13th amendment allows for. There's also "wage slavery", which even Abe Lincoln and the republican party agreed was comparable to chattel slavery unless the wage slavery eventually led to self-employment.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > the people who fought the civil war believed that they were doing it to end slavery For many Northerners, it had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with states rights vs. federalism. And keeping the Union together. Revisionist history makes it 100% about slavery.
  - kthielen 4y ago
    While it’s true to say that some northerners had other interests in fighting the civil war, there’s no clearer evidence of the cause and purpose of the civil war than the reasons cited by secessionist states for leaving the union. Yes it was about “states rights”, but specifically (as they themselves said) it was about the right of states to continue slavery. You can say that people in the north weren’t angels, they certainly weren’t, and that there were other issues that motivated people to enter the war and fight for their side, there certainly were. But the central issue of the civil war was slavery. If it was any other issue, the seceding states would have said it, and surely a compromise would have been reached (as in fact even today states have “rights” if not just the “right” to hold slaves).
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      > seceding states would have said it They did. I get the feeling we’ve read different history books. So many reasons. What about the industrial north and the agricultural south? Played no part in the war, I’ve suspect you’d say. It was all slavery.
      - abvdasker 4y ago
        > What about the industrial north and the agricultural south? Guess what kind of labor the economy of the "agricultural south" was dependent on at the time. The Civil War was primarily about slavery, especially the expansion of slavery westward. To argue the opposite is ahistorical nonsense so false it amounts to an outright lie. Even the Confederacy was open about the fact that slavery was the reason for succession. Just read The Cornerstone Speech given by the vice president of the Confederacy weeks before the Civil War began: > [The Confederacy's] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
- travisjungroth 4y ago
  > No I’m not changing my question Come one, you totally changed your question!

kthielen 4y ago

No I’m not changing my question, but I think this gets to the misunderstanding that there must be in rejecting the idea that the 13th amendment ended slavery. We didn’t fight the civil war to end the concept of incarceration for duly convicted lawbreakers. It’s pretty easy to understand and accept that right? And the people who fought the civil war believed that they were doing it to end slavery. So perhaps your definition of slavery is inconsistent with theirs, and also out of step with the letter of the law.

boomboomsubban 4y ago
Incarceration isn't slavery, we could still have prison without treating people like property. And again, the 13th Amendment is the first time slavery was mentioned and it explicitly allowed some form of it. Maybe the Civil War vets were fine with that, but the amendment still codified slavery.
shadowofneptune 4y ago
https://theconversation.com/prison-records-from-1800s-georgia-show-mass-incarcerations-racially-charged-beginnings-96612 https://theconversation.com/prison-records-from-1800s-georgi... Across the US but most flagrantly in the deep south, you see huge spikes in the black prison population starting after the civil war. Many were contracted out to mines, farms, etc. Conditions were poor, many died in that labor. There's little else it can be called once you move out of the abstract.
beebmam 4y ago
I think there's a big difference between Chattel slavery, and the kind of slavery that the 13th amendment allows for. There's also "wage slavery", which even Abe Lincoln and the republican party agreed was comparable to chattel slavery unless the wage slavery eventually led to self-employment.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> the people who fought the civil war believed that they were doing it to end slavery For many Northerners, it had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with states rights vs. federalism. And keeping the Union together. Revisionist history makes it 100% about slavery.
- kthielen 4y ago
  While it’s true to say that some northerners had other interests in fighting the civil war, there’s no clearer evidence of the cause and purpose of the civil war than the reasons cited by secessionist states for leaving the union. Yes it was about “states rights”, but specifically (as they themselves said) it was about the right of states to continue slavery. You can say that people in the north weren’t angels, they certainly weren’t, and that there were other issues that motivated people to enter the war and fight for their side, there certainly were. But the central issue of the civil war was slavery. If it was any other issue, the seceding states would have said it, and surely a compromise would have been reached (as in fact even today states have “rights” if not just the “right” to hold slaves).
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    > seceding states would have said it They did. I get the feeling we’ve read different history books. So many reasons. What about the industrial north and the agricultural south? Played no part in the war, I’ve suspect you’d say. It was all slavery.
    - abvdasker 4y ago
      > What about the industrial north and the agricultural south? Guess what kind of labor the economy of the "agricultural south" was dependent on at the time. The Civil War was primarily about slavery, especially the expansion of slavery westward. To argue the opposite is ahistorical nonsense so false it amounts to an outright lie. Even the Confederacy was open about the fact that slavery was the reason for succession. Just read The Cornerstone Speech given by the vice president of the Confederacy weeks before the Civil War began: > [The Confederacy's] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
travisjungroth 4y ago
> No I’m not changing my question Come one, you totally changed your question!