4 ms·

So the problem is that incarcerated criminals lose their freedom? That’s what you object to?

batch12 4y ago
Captivity, forced labor, and unsafe conditions as a result of subjective sentencing and a fallible criminal justice system.
- kthielen 4y ago
  Huh, so what are you arguing for exactly? No justice system? What happens to murderers?
  - betwixthewires 4y ago
    I don't think anyone is arguing for anything man, they're just pointing out that forcing people to work, conviction or not, is, in fact, slavery. If you think that slavery in those cases is justified, that's a different discussion. But it is slavery, plain and simple.
    - kthielen 4y ago
      You are right, except to the extent that “people SAY the 13th amendment ended slavery but it really codified it man” recasts what happened in the civil war and what purpose people had in fighting and dying to get it passed. Some people today want the glory of abolitionist revolution without having to pay with their own blood. Yeah, maybe you can make an argument that the justice system can work differently in one way or another with diff tradeoffs, but if you set up the argument so that you’re in a morally superior position to the people who fought and died in the civil war to end slavery, you should expect and you definitely deserve very strong opposition.
markdown 4y ago
Nah, criminals all over the world lose their freedom. They aren't turned into slaves https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...
- kthielen 4y ago
  In some places, criminals are killed much more quickly as punishment. Should we do that instead, because some countries do it? Or maybe we should figure out what we want to do by argument and consensus, instead of blindly following the old colonialists and ex-fascists in Europe?
  - markdown 4y ago
    > In some places, criminals are killed much more quickly as punishment. Should we do that instead, because some countries do it? You do. USA is a world leader in killing criminals. Only China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt kill more per year. > Or maybe we should figure out what we want to do by argument and consensus, instead of blindly following the old colonialists and ex-fascists in Europe? You don't do that. You blindly follow some 20yr old colonials who scribbled out a constitution 200 years ago.
    - kthielen 4y ago
      > Only China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt kill more per year. So you're saying we could do better I guess. > You don't do that. You blindly follow some 20yr old colonials > who scribbled out a constitution 200 years ago. I guess, but maybe better to follow 20 year old colonials who wrote a constitution 200 years ago than to blindly follow inbred royal families with even poorer claims to power? I mean, as long as we're just throwing insults at this point, you have to see that Europe is at least as ridiculous (and at least when it comes to politics, arguably much worse).
      - markdown 4y ago
        And which royal families have claim to power? Do you really think kings and queens still rule in Europe, like in Disney fairytales?
        kthielen 4y ago
        Let me guess, that smug superiority, serious and knowing citations from "The Guardian", you're from the UK right? And you're lecturing us in the states about our naive skepticism of countries with royal families, while also paying your taxes to protect the royal pedophile Prince Andrew right? Please tell me more about how royalty no longer rules in Europe.
travisjungroth 4y ago
No, I answered your question before you edited it. You asked something to the effect of "How does the 13th amendment codify slavery?". This is Section 1 of the 13th amendment, that has an explicit exemption under which slavery is not unconstitutional.

Captivity, forced labor, and unsafe conditions as a result of subjective sentencing and a fallible criminal justice system.

kthielen 4y ago
Huh, so what are you arguing for exactly? No justice system? What happens to murderers?
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  I don't think anyone is arguing for anything man, they're just pointing out that forcing people to work, conviction or not, is, in fact, slavery. If you think that slavery in those cases is justified, that's a different discussion. But it is slavery, plain and simple.
  - kthielen 4y ago
    You are right, except to the extent that “people SAY the 13th amendment ended slavery but it really codified it man” recasts what happened in the civil war and what purpose people had in fighting and dying to get it passed. Some people today want the glory of abolitionist revolution without having to pay with their own blood. Yeah, maybe you can make an argument that the justice system can work differently in one way or another with diff tradeoffs, but if you set up the argument so that you’re in a morally superior position to the people who fought and died in the civil war to end slavery, you should expect and you definitely deserve very strong opposition.

markdown 4y ago

Nah, criminals all over the world lose their freedom. They aren't turned into slaves https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...

kthielen 4y ago
In some places, criminals are killed much more quickly as punishment. Should we do that instead, because some countries do it? Or maybe we should figure out what we want to do by argument and consensus, instead of blindly following the old colonialists and ex-fascists in Europe?
- markdown 4y ago
  > In some places, criminals are killed much more quickly as punishment. Should we do that instead, because some countries do it? You do. USA is a world leader in killing criminals. Only China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt kill more per year. > Or maybe we should figure out what we want to do by argument and consensus, instead of blindly following the old colonialists and ex-fascists in Europe? You don't do that. You blindly follow some 20yr old colonials who scribbled out a constitution 200 years ago.
  - kthielen 4y ago
    > Only China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt kill more per year. So you're saying we could do better I guess. > You don't do that. You blindly follow some 20yr old colonials > who scribbled out a constitution 200 years ago. I guess, but maybe better to follow 20 year old colonials who wrote a constitution 200 years ago than to blindly follow inbred royal families with even poorer claims to power? I mean, as long as we're just throwing insults at this point, you have to see that Europe is at least as ridiculous (and at least when it comes to politics, arguably much worse).
    - markdown 4y ago
      And which royal families have claim to power? Do you really think kings and queens still rule in Europe, like in Disney fairytales?
      - kthielen 4y ago
        Let me guess, that smug superiority, serious and knowing citations from "The Guardian", you're from the UK right? And you're lecturing us in the states about our naive skepticism of countries with royal families, while also paying your taxes to protect the royal pedophile Prince Andrew right? Please tell me more about how royalty no longer rules in Europe.

travisjungroth 4y ago

No, I answered your question before you edited it. You asked something to the effect of "How does the 13th amendment codify slavery?". This is Section 1 of the 13th amendment, that has an explicit exemption under which slavery is not unconstitutional.