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And also, Hunting & gathering/foraging will only support a far smaller population than our current agriculture based society. So sure, you can live off foragin

And also, Hunting & gathering/foraging will only support a far smaller population than our current agriculture based society. So sure, you can live off foraging alone. When everyone else is not. But when _everyone_ starts hunting and gathering you'll quickly realise how far agriculture has displaced us from the basic carrying capacity of the land, and then move onto the realisation of what happens in nature when the population of an animal exceeds the carrying capacity of their territory. Starvation, conflict. Nothing great. That's the problem with post-apocalyptic day dreams, they usually posit you as one of the few survivors. In reality, there'll be way more other survivors, either competing with you for resources, or, if you have a sweet bunker filled with supplies, forming a coalition that can overcome any advantage you have in firepower, by sheer numbers of desperate people. (Peter Thiel take note, if the apocalypse comes, you can't shoot every Kiwi, and we're mighty interested in what's in your bunker. #AotearoaIsNotYourLifeboatRichPeople)

kiliantics 4y ago
While on the face of it, this sounds right, I've started to think there's a chance we are wrong. Can you really prove that industrialised agriculture has a higher carrying capacity than untamed nature? Supposedly the population of the USA pre-colonialism was comparable to today's population and, whatever way they were managing food systems, they were able to sustain that for millennia, rather than exhausting almost all the soil's fertility in a few generations. Then there's recent findings that pre-industrial fisheries were often as productive as early industrialised ones[0]. But again, sustained for long periods rather than rapidly leading to vanishingly small returns. Findings like this really lead me to the question of whether our current approach to feeding ourselves is actually so great or whether we should return to more "proven" methods. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/04/precolonial-first-nations-oyster-fisheries-sustained-millennia-of-intense-harvests-study-shows?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/04/precolon...
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  > Supposedly the population of the USA pre-colonialism was comparable to today's population Agriculture didn't arrive in the US with white people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_in_the_Southwestern_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_in_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_on_the_Great_Plains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_on_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Agricultural_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Agricultural_Complex

kiliantics 4y ago

While on the face of it, this sounds right, I've started to think there's a chance we are wrong. Can you really prove that industrialised agriculture has a higher carrying capacity than untamed nature? Supposedly the population of the USA pre-colonialism was comparable to today's population and, whatever way they were managing food systems, they were able to sustain that for millennia, rather than exhausting almost all the soil's fertility in a few generations. Then there's recent findings that pre-industrial fisheries were often as productive as early industrialised ones[0]. But again, sustained for long periods rather than rapidly leading to vanishingly small returns. Findings like this really lead me to the question of whether our current approach to feeding ourselves is actually so great or whether we should return to more "proven" methods. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/04/precolonial-first-nations-oyster-fisheries-sustained-millennia-of-intense-harvests-study-shows?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/04/precolon...

EdwardDiego 4y ago
> Supposedly the population of the USA pre-colonialism was comparable to today's population Agriculture didn't arrive in the US with white people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_in_the_Southwestern_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_in_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_on_the_Great_Plains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_on_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Agricultural_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Agricultural_Complex