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For how long though? It seems like traditional automakers have mostly figured out EVs now. I love my Chevy EV, and it's 4 years old now. Similarly, the Kia E

For how long though? It seems like traditional automakers have mostly figured out EVs now. I love my Chevy EV, and it's 4 years old now. Similarly, the Kia EV I recently drove was excellent(although the Bolt one pedal driving is better IMHO).

jeffbee 4y ago
If I have to pick a side in the battle of who can produce the most cheap batteries, an insane Twitter addict or state-controlled industries of South Korea, I'm going with the Koreans.
- tooltalk 4y ago
  Hyundai Motor Group is state-controlled? You mean like GM?
  - mathverse 4y ago
    He mixed that up with Chinese corporations. Korean chaebols are more like "state endorsed monopolies". Or state "you can get away with almost anything corporations because you make a large chunk of our GDP and employ a lot of people". That said...I would bet on koreans too.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      I'm not mixed up but I guess I should have said state-controlling instead of state-controlled. The chaebols are running the place, that's why they won the DRAM wars. Batteries, same thing. And I was referring to LG Chem, not Hyundai.
atombender 4y ago
The situation outside the US is even worse for Tesla. There's a whole swathe of great EVs these days from VW (ID.3, ID.4), Renault (Megane, E-2008), Opel (Corsa-e), Volvo (C40, XC40), Ford (Mustang Mach-E), Jaguar (I-PACE), Polestar, BMW (i4, iX), Audi (e-Tron), Mercedes (EQS), Skoda (Enyaq), etc. The range of models is also much wider in terms of affordability. In Europe, we've reached the point where an EV is just another car, and even the cheaper ones have tons of clever bells and whistles like 360 cameras.
- practice9 4y ago
  And still Teslas sell better both in EU & China than all those EVs you mentioned
  - Swenrekcah 4y ago
    For now, but they’ll get overtaken next year, perhaps even this year if the trends continue. For the first 5 months of 2022 there were 500,000 BEVs sold in Europe with Tesla 3 and Y accounting for a little over 60,000. [1] There is a tidal wave of competing offerings and Tesla will soon be on the sidelines. [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/594688/europe-plugin-car-sales-may-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/594688/europe-plugin-car-sales-ma...
  - atombender 4y ago
    They sell better than any single car brand, sure, but much less as a fraction of the market. Their market share in Europe has been around 25% (compared to around 70% in the US). And it's falling. In March 2022, Tesla's market share was just 10.5%.
    - practice9 4y ago
      There is a large demand for EVs for multiple reasons (incl. the current energy crisis) and Tesla is not scaling fast enough. It's great that others also started producing EVs (consumer choice, price etc.). But in absolute numbers it will not be easy to catch up, as batteries are a limiting factor. Energy efficiency in modern EV brands also isn't very good, which requires putting more battery (and weight) into the car. (perhaps excluding Hyundai Ioniq-s) Combined with fast scaling of the car production + high price of lithium batteries, this will limit how many cars can be produced or increase the car price for the consumer. This may change if manufacturers will start improving efficiency or building battery factories for themselves. Which I think only VW is currently planning to do
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Eh? Tesla is third behind VW Group and Stellantis in the EU (fourth if you count Renault-Nissan, but that's a marginal case), and third behind BYD and SAIC in China. Now, it's true that they're the biggest single BEV _brand_ in Europe (and second-biggest in China), but that's... basically just a different marketing approach. VW Group has multiple constituent brands mostly selling largely the same thing (SEAT/SKODA/Scania/Cupra/VW/Audi); it's no skin off their nose if someone buys a VW id3 or a Cupra Born (these are the same thing).
dmitriid 4y ago
I'm now seeing a lot of VW ID.4s and Skoda Enyaqs (basically the same car, different styling) in Sweden.

jeffbee 4y ago

If I have to pick a side in the battle of who can produce the most cheap batteries, an insane Twitter addict or state-controlled industries of South Korea, I'm going with the Koreans.

tooltalk 4y ago
Hyundai Motor Group is state-controlled? You mean like GM?
- mathverse 4y ago
  He mixed that up with Chinese corporations. Korean chaebols are more like "state endorsed monopolies". Or state "you can get away with almost anything corporations because you make a large chunk of our GDP and employ a lot of people". That said...I would bet on koreans too.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    I'm not mixed up but I guess I should have said state-controlling instead of state-controlled. The chaebols are running the place, that's why they won the DRAM wars. Batteries, same thing. And I was referring to LG Chem, not Hyundai.

atombender 4y ago

The situation outside the US is even worse for Tesla. There's a whole swathe of great EVs these days from VW (ID.3, ID.4), Renault (Megane, E-2008), Opel (Corsa-e), Volvo (C40, XC40), Ford (Mustang Mach-E), Jaguar (I-PACE), Polestar, BMW (i4, iX), Audi (e-Tron), Mercedes (EQS), Skoda (Enyaq), etc. The range of models is also much wider in terms of affordability. In Europe, we've reached the point where an EV is just another car, and even the cheaper ones have tons of clever bells and whistles like 360 cameras.

practice9 4y ago
And still Teslas sell better both in EU & China than all those EVs you mentioned
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  For now, but they’ll get overtaken next year, perhaps even this year if the trends continue. For the first 5 months of 2022 there were 500,000 BEVs sold in Europe with Tesla 3 and Y accounting for a little over 60,000. [1] There is a tidal wave of competing offerings and Tesla will soon be on the sidelines. [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/594688/europe-plugin-car-sales-may-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/594688/europe-plugin-car-sales-ma...
- atombender 4y ago
  They sell better than any single car brand, sure, but much less as a fraction of the market. Their market share in Europe has been around 25% (compared to around 70% in the US). And it's falling. In March 2022, Tesla's market share was just 10.5%.
  - practice9 4y ago
    There is a large demand for EVs for multiple reasons (incl. the current energy crisis) and Tesla is not scaling fast enough. It's great that others also started producing EVs (consumer choice, price etc.). But in absolute numbers it will not be easy to catch up, as batteries are a limiting factor. Energy efficiency in modern EV brands also isn't very good, which requires putting more battery (and weight) into the car. (perhaps excluding Hyundai Ioniq-s) Combined with fast scaling of the car production + high price of lithium batteries, this will limit how many cars can be produced or increase the car price for the consumer. This may change if manufacturers will start improving efficiency or building battery factories for themselves. Which I think only VW is currently planning to do
- rsynnott 4y ago
  Eh? Tesla is third behind VW Group and Stellantis in the EU (fourth if you count Renault-Nissan, but that's a marginal case), and third behind BYD and SAIC in China. Now, it's true that they're the biggest single BEV _brand_ in Europe (and second-biggest in China), but that's... basically just a different marketing approach. VW Group has multiple constituent brands mostly selling largely the same thing (SEAT/SKODA/Scania/Cupra/VW/Audi); it's no skin off their nose if someone buys a VW id3 or a Cupra Born (these are the same thing).

dmitriid 4y ago

I'm now seeing a lot of VW ID.4s and Skoda Enyaqs (basically the same car, different styling) in Sweden.