4 ms·

How is it exploitation when both parties voluntarily engage in an agreement? Is anyone forced or coerced here? Is there any ambiguity or deceiving language? It

How is it exploitation when both parties voluntarily engage in an agreement? Is anyone forced or coerced here? Is there any ambiguity or deceiving language? It is better than calling it "Unlimited Vacation" and then leaving it up at discretion. They're being up-front and honest about it. It should be totally OK to advertise a job with 0 vacation days. We're talking about fully functional and grown up adults who have great college education who can make that decision if they would like to take on a high-responsibility and high-risk job. In fact, I would argue the complete opposite. Doing anything else is interference and forceful coercion.

swatcoder 4y ago
If you apply for 30 jobs, advance to 5 interviews, and receive 1 offer, all while your savings (do you have savings?) are being depleted on living expenses and college debt, are you really on even footing for fair negotiation? Or are you in a position to "take what you can get" and thereby find yourself vulnerable to an offer well below market norms? We use the word exploitative to capture that sort of scenario. It suggests that the employer is exploiting candidates' extenuating circumstances. It's generally not sustainable for either party and the side effect for the employer is high churn and low productivity/quality.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  This is a made up scenario that fabricates "exploitation", but even in this case I disagree. If there are no jobs out there, then tough luck. You are still getting paid vastly more than probably 99.99% of the world's jobs. The entitlement is simply astonishing and incongruent, completely untenable even in the most charitable interpretation. Furthermore, I believe that in jobs like this, companies cannot afford to hire someone that is going to take 8 months parental leave, for example. That would be consider exploitation of the employer by the employee in my view.
andruby 4y ago
If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation, then there's no real other alternative. You could try to negotiate. I prefer to give people plenty of holidays. Enjoy life, recharge. I often come up with some of my best work ideas while or after a holiday. (I'm often concerned about the productivity of people who don't take time off. I work with independently contracting software engineers and some of the most productive ones take plenty of time off)
- DennisP 4y ago
  > If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation But since that's not the case, there are alternatives.

swatcoder 4y ago

If you apply for 30 jobs, advance to 5 interviews, and receive 1 offer, all while your savings (do you have savings?) are being depleted on living expenses and college debt, are you really on even footing for fair negotiation? Or are you in a position to "take what you can get" and thereby find yourself vulnerable to an offer well below market norms? We use the word exploitative to capture that sort of scenario. It suggests that the employer is exploiting candidates' extenuating circumstances. It's generally not sustainable for either party and the side effect for the employer is high churn and low productivity/quality.

systemvoltage 4y ago
This is a made up scenario that fabricates "exploitation", but even in this case I disagree. If there are no jobs out there, then tough luck. You are still getting paid vastly more than probably 99.99% of the world's jobs. The entitlement is simply astonishing and incongruent, completely untenable even in the most charitable interpretation. Furthermore, I believe that in jobs like this, companies cannot afford to hire someone that is going to take 8 months parental leave, for example. That would be consider exploitation of the employer by the employee in my view.

andruby 4y ago

If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation, then there's no real other alternative. You could try to negotiate. I prefer to give people plenty of holidays. Enjoy life, recharge. I often come up with some of my best work ideas while or after a holiday. (I'm often concerned about the productivity of people who don't take time off. I work with independently contracting software engineers and some of the most productive ones take plenty of time off)

DennisP 4y ago
> If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation But since that's not the case, there are alternatives.