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10-15 days’ vacation is pretty bare minimum if you are trying to get top talent. Maybe think about adding 5 days onto those buckets to get higher quality candid

10-15 days’ vacation is pretty bare minimum if you are trying to get top talent. Maybe think about adding 5 days onto those buckets to get higher quality candidates.

hef19898 4y ago
Living where the legal minimum is 24 days in addition to bank holidays and where 28 days the practical minimum with the consus being 30 days, I'll call that exploitation.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  How is it exploitation when both parties voluntarily engage in an agreement? Is anyone forced or coerced here? Is there any ambiguity or deceiving language? It is better than calling it "Unlimited Vacation" and then leaving it up at discretion. They're being up-front and honest about it. It should be totally OK to advertise a job with 0 vacation days. We're talking about fully functional and grown up adults who have great college education who can make that decision if they would like to take on a high-responsibility and high-risk job. In fact, I would argue the complete opposite. Doing anything else is interference and forceful coercion.
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    If you apply for 30 jobs, advance to 5 interviews, and receive 1 offer, all while your savings (do you have savings?) are being depleted on living expenses and college debt, are you really on even footing for fair negotiation? Or are you in a position to "take what you can get" and thereby find yourself vulnerable to an offer well below market norms? We use the word exploitative to capture that sort of scenario. It suggests that the employer is exploiting candidates' extenuating circumstances. It's generally not sustainable for either party and the side effect for the employer is high churn and low productivity/quality.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      This is a made up scenario that fabricates "exploitation", but even in this case I disagree. If there are no jobs out there, then tough luck. You are still getting paid vastly more than probably 99.99% of the world's jobs. The entitlement is simply astonishing and incongruent, completely untenable even in the most charitable interpretation. Furthermore, I believe that in jobs like this, companies cannot afford to hire someone that is going to take 8 months parental leave, for example. That would be consider exploitation of the employer by the employee in my view.
  - andruby 4y ago
    If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation, then there's no real other alternative. You could try to negotiate. I prefer to give people plenty of holidays. Enjoy life, recharge. I often come up with some of my best work ideas while or after a holiday. (I'm often concerned about the productivity of people who don't take time off. I work with independently contracting software engineers and some of the most productive ones take plenty of time off)
    - DennisP 4y ago
      > If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation But since that's not the case, there are alternatives.
looperhacks 4y ago
Is this a common number of vacation days in the US? In Germany the minimum _by law_ is 20 days on a 5 day week and I wouldn't even consider a position offering only that.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Isn't the legal minimum in Germany 24 days, two days per month?
  - JanSt 4y ago
    24 days for 6 day week, 20 days for 5 day week More or less everyone has a 5-day week. Most jobs offer 25-30 days/year + unlimited sick days
    - ratww 4y ago
      Yep. My job offers 35 days: 30 flexible days/year plus 5 days where they close shop.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        That's nice! Our mandatory closure over christmas goes out of the 30 day balance. Still good enough!
- ghaff 4y ago
  Assuming sick time is a separate pool (which is less common than it used to be and isn't mentioned), then yes in the US 15 days would be pretty standard for someone with experience but might be as low as 10 for someone without. It's almost certainly on the low side if that's a common vacation/sick time pool.
  - cardanome 4y ago
    In Germany when you are sick you are sick, there is no limit. You will be paid and you can not be fired for it. An allotted amount of "sick days" doesn't really make sense anyway, not like you can choose to be sick next year. (Only exception is for long term sicknesses, if you are sick for more than 6 consecutive weeks, then the next week your health insurance will pay you 60% of your normal wage instead. Or if there is no hope of you ever being able to work, again insurance.) Oh and if you are sick on vacation you get your vacation days back as you were not really able to take advantage of them.
deleted 4y ago
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ceeplusplus 4y ago
Top talent rarely takes vacations, and in my experience usually works a lot more than 40 hours a week (not because they have to, but because they want to). Go and ask any PhD student at a top 10 CS university what they think of 20 days vacation and 30 hour work weeks. I think you'll find the answer expands your worldview.
- ckemere 4y ago
  Going home for a week at Christmas and backpacking/surfing for a week in the summer seems not at all unusual? That's why they can pay $30k stipends...
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int0x2e 4y ago
That still sounds super low to me. I've got 23 vacation days + 5-15 holiday days (varies by year due to the holidays shifting around the schedule) per year, and we get a ton of medical leave if you need it. I rarely make use of my full vacation options, but I still take a few weeks every summer and a few weeks during our holiday seasons. The US labor market makes no sense to me...
MattGaiser 4y ago
They may want just the passionate workaholic candidates. I've had interviews where they were pretty open about the company culture not being one where you take vacation. There is something to be said for working people a ton of hours to compensate for talent/skill. A few notable Canadian startups are built heavily on evening and weekend labour of immigrants and young people.
- hef19898 4y ago
  They want young, naive people that acceot that kind of thing in exchange for saving the world and some petty RSUs, if any. All the while working to make early investors and founders rich or even richer. In a way, being open about it actually makes sure you get exactky those candidates. As I said, exploitative.
  - DennisP 4y ago
    > in exchange for saving the world Yeah, just saving the world, no big deal. Usually those claims are bullshit, but not in this case. If I had the qualifications to meaningfully contribute to this, I'd jump at the chance and minimize my vacations for the next several years.
    - burntoutfire 4y ago
      Saving the world would still happen if these people got 20 vacation days. The main difference would be the small decrease of ROI for the investors.

10-15 days’ vacation is pretty bare minimum if you are trying to get top talent. Maybe think about adding 5 days onto those buckets to get higher quality candidates.

hef19898 4y ago

Living where the legal minimum is 24 days in addition to bank holidays and where 28 days the practical minimum with the consus being 30 days, I'll call that exploitation.

systemvoltage 4y ago
How is it exploitation when both parties voluntarily engage in an agreement? Is anyone forced or coerced here? Is there any ambiguity or deceiving language? It is better than calling it "Unlimited Vacation" and then leaving it up at discretion. They're being up-front and honest about it. It should be totally OK to advertise a job with 0 vacation days. We're talking about fully functional and grown up adults who have great college education who can make that decision if they would like to take on a high-responsibility and high-risk job. In fact, I would argue the complete opposite. Doing anything else is interference and forceful coercion.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  If you apply for 30 jobs, advance to 5 interviews, and receive 1 offer, all while your savings (do you have savings?) are being depleted on living expenses and college debt, are you really on even footing for fair negotiation? Or are you in a position to "take what you can get" and thereby find yourself vulnerable to an offer well below market norms? We use the word exploitative to capture that sort of scenario. It suggests that the employer is exploiting candidates' extenuating circumstances. It's generally not sustainable for either party and the side effect for the employer is high churn and low productivity/quality.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    This is a made up scenario that fabricates "exploitation", but even in this case I disagree. If there are no jobs out there, then tough luck. You are still getting paid vastly more than probably 99.99% of the world's jobs. The entitlement is simply astonishing and incongruent, completely untenable even in the most charitable interpretation. Furthermore, I believe that in jobs like this, companies cannot afford to hire someone that is going to take 8 months parental leave, for example. That would be consider exploitation of the employer by the employee in my view.
- andruby 4y ago
  If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation, then there's no real other alternative. You could try to negotiate. I prefer to give people plenty of holidays. Enjoy life, recharge. I often come up with some of my best work ideas while or after a holiday. (I'm often concerned about the productivity of people who don't take time off. I work with independently contracting software engineers and some of the most productive ones take plenty of time off)
  - DennisP 4y ago
    > If all companies with interesting jobs only offer 10 days vacation But since that's not the case, there are alternatives.

looperhacks 4y ago

Is this a common number of vacation days in the US? In Germany the minimum _by law_ is 20 days on a 5 day week and I wouldn't even consider a position offering only that.

hef19898 4y ago
Isn't the legal minimum in Germany 24 days, two days per month?
- JanSt 4y ago
  24 days for 6 day week, 20 days for 5 day week More or less everyone has a 5-day week. Most jobs offer 25-30 days/year + unlimited sick days
  - ratww 4y ago
    Yep. My job offers 35 days: 30 flexible days/year plus 5 days where they close shop.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      That's nice! Our mandatory closure over christmas goes out of the 30 day balance. Still good enough!
ghaff 4y ago
Assuming sick time is a separate pool (which is less common than it used to be and isn't mentioned), then yes in the US 15 days would be pretty standard for someone with experience but might be as low as 10 for someone without. It's almost certainly on the low side if that's a common vacation/sick time pool.
- cardanome 4y ago
  In Germany when you are sick you are sick, there is no limit. You will be paid and you can not be fired for it. An allotted amount of "sick days" doesn't really make sense anyway, not like you can choose to be sick next year. (Only exception is for long term sicknesses, if you are sick for more than 6 consecutive weeks, then the next week your health insurance will pay you 60% of your normal wage instead. Or if there is no hope of you ever being able to work, again insurance.) Oh and if you are sick on vacation you get your vacation days back as you were not really able to take advantage of them.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ceeplusplus 4y ago

Top talent rarely takes vacations, and in my experience usually works a lot more than 40 hours a week (not because they have to, but because they want to). Go and ask any PhD student at a top 10 CS university what they think of 20 days vacation and 30 hour work weeks. I think you'll find the answer expands your worldview.

ckemere 4y ago
Going home for a week at Christmas and backpacking/surfing for a week in the summer seems not at all unusual? That's why they can pay $30k stipends...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

int0x2e 4y ago

That still sounds super low to me. I've got 23 vacation days + 5-15 holiday days (varies by year due to the holidays shifting around the schedule) per year, and we get a ton of medical leave if you need it. I rarely make use of my full vacation options, but I still take a few weeks every summer and a few weeks during our holiday seasons. The US labor market makes no sense to me...

MattGaiser 4y ago

They may want just the passionate workaholic candidates. I've had interviews where they were pretty open about the company culture not being one where you take vacation. There is something to be said for working people a ton of hours to compensate for talent/skill. A few notable Canadian startups are built heavily on evening and weekend labour of immigrants and young people.

hef19898 4y ago
They want young, naive people that acceot that kind of thing in exchange for saving the world and some petty RSUs, if any. All the while working to make early investors and founders rich or even richer. In a way, being open about it actually makes sure you get exactky those candidates. As I said, exploitative.
- DennisP 4y ago
  > in exchange for saving the world Yeah, just saving the world, no big deal. Usually those claims are bullshit, but not in this case. If I had the qualifications to meaningfully contribute to this, I'd jump at the chance and minimize my vacations for the next several years.
  - burntoutfire 4y ago
    Saving the world would still happen if these people got 20 vacation days. The main difference would be the small decrease of ROI for the investors.