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IMO the primary utility of Ring is for Amazon to surveil their delivery contractors, without a doorbell cam it’s trivial for a delivery person to set the packag

IMO the primary utility of Ring is for Amazon to surveil their delivery contractors, without a doorbell cam it’s trivial for a delivery person to set the package on the porch, photograph it as “proof of delivery”, and then walk away with said package. So the deterrent effect is good for the consumer in that it prevents theft, and good for Amazon because they can contract out to just about anyone to deliver packages, no trust required (or, “trust but verify”)

techdragon 4y ago
For bonus points they can then point the finger at the local thieves that happily try to identify and then shadow Amazon delivery contractors and steal valuable looking parcels based on whatever gut instinct they have for value based on size/shape/weight of the packages. Amazon proves the delivery and now it’s the local Polive Department’s problem. They are literally selling customers an excuse they can use later against the very customer that buys it.
- jonnycomputer 4y ago
  That really does sound like one of their incentives for having these... never thought about that.
- jrh206 4y ago
  In your example the thieves have nothing to do with Amazon or their drivers. I don’t understand how this could be construed as Amazon selling an excuse for something they’re not responsible for.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    Amazon used to get stuck holding the bag. Now they can make the customer hold the bag.
    - berberous 4y ago
      I mean, the customer should hold the bag in that scenario. Amazon completed the delivery.
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        Does Amazon actually offer the option to sign for the package? (I've never really thought about this, living in a nice neighborhood) I mean, the customers know what they are getting into I guess but it is still bad if the dominant online store doesn't offer any way to securely get their products.
        zorpner 4y ago
        Amazon doesn't even give their drivers time to piss, they're not going to wait for signatures.
      - jjoonathan 4y ago
        I am sure Amazon sees it that way, but I am not at all sure customers see it that way. The "Buy It Now" button doesn't exactly show INCOTERMS. Ultimately, this is all a zero-sum BS game until we start talking about actual solutions, but I don't know enough about what Amazon offers to have an opinion about who needs to do better. If Amazon offers porch locker delivery and convenient central locker locations, sure, let's push customers to use them -- but if Amazon refuses to deliver to porch lockers and offers central lockers that are 20 miles away and open 10am-3pm, let's push Amazon to do better.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    I once had delivery guy give my package to random kids that were loitering outside my door. The way I see it, untill i have recieved it, it's the seller's responsebility
- hansvm 4y ago
  In a lot of jurisdictions the seller is liable for the package till the consumer receives it, often explicitly calling out doorstep delivery as being insufficient to remove that liability. The seller might separately have a claim against a carrier or thief, but the law is on the side of the consumer regardless of whatever else plays out. Plus, legalities aside, it's usually cheaper to satisfy the consumer than to take the long-term PR hit of their goods sold being costly gambles.
  - hansvm 4y ago
    Contradicting myself a bit, I did once have a rather unpleasant experience where I required 4 encounters with Amazon customer service before they would stop charging me for a delivery they failed. It was eventually not a problem, but the hours spent weren't substantially less than a lawsuit for the same (the costs were drastically less at least).
woodruffw 4y ago
This will maybe be too snide, but I want to say it: what an utterly ridiculous system we've contrived for ourselves. People want to live in suburbs, where their residences are separated from commercial areas. This starves city and town centers, leaving only big businesses that are capable of thriving on high volume sales. But we still want the convenience of walking down to their neighborhood store, so we've constructed an entire economic system built on shipping things in disposable boxes around the globe and getting them to people's doorsteps within two business days. But, it turns out, this makes it really easy for someone to walk up to your door and steal your package. So we pay the same companies that starve our neighborhood businesses for the privilege of being surveilled, in turn externalizing the cost of their haphazard practices onto law enforcement and the victimized parties. More middlemen, more theft, more surveillance, more waste. What a farce.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > But we still want the convenience of walking down to their neighborhood store, so we've constructed an entire economic system built on shipping things in disposable boxes around the globe and getting them to people's doorsteps within two business days. 1. Generally they don't come from across the globe to your doorstep after your order, but from a nearby fulfillment center. 2. Getting things quickly from online shopping is just as nice in cities (actually nicer, because you can get a broader variety of goods quickly) as in suburbs.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Where, pray tell, does the fulfillment center receive them from? Shipping happens regardless (I know my local hardware store doesn't make vacuum cleaners), but the waste of individual boxes and delivery for every single item on demand is obscene. You're right that it's just as nice in cities, if not nicer. But that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it not a maladaptation within our economic system.
    - mlyle 4y ago
      > Where, pray tell, does the fulfillment center receive them from? Shipping happens regardless (I know my local hardware store doesn't make vacuum cleaners), Yes, the steps before are very similar to fulfillment centers vs. to distribution centers servicing retail and to individual retail stores (not quite the same-- you need somewhat more fulfillment centers). It's just the last step from the fulfillment center to your house that are different.
justapassenger 4y ago
You're waaaaay overthinking it. Building whole system of analyzing that at scale is very costly, and totally unnecessary. Amazon, as any other carrier, depends on the insurance (self-insurance in this case) and statistics. Some % of package theft will happen, and it's all priced in into their business cost.
pengaru 4y ago
Is this really all that effective until practically everyone has one? They do seem common, but not that ubiquitous, yet. My parents have a Ring camera, my sister has a Nest, and I have DIY raspberry pi cameras. My parents immediate neighbors have none.

techdragon 4y ago

For bonus points they can then point the finger at the local thieves that happily try to identify and then shadow Amazon delivery contractors and steal valuable looking parcels based on whatever gut instinct they have for value based on size/shape/weight of the packages. Amazon proves the delivery and now it’s the local Polive Department’s problem. They are literally selling customers an excuse they can use later against the very customer that buys it.

jonnycomputer 4y ago
That really does sound like one of their incentives for having these... never thought about that.
jrh206 4y ago
In your example the thieves have nothing to do with Amazon or their drivers. I don’t understand how this could be construed as Amazon selling an excuse for something they’re not responsible for.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  Amazon used to get stuck holding the bag. Now they can make the customer hold the bag.
  - berberous 4y ago
    I mean, the customer should hold the bag in that scenario. Amazon completed the delivery.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Does Amazon actually offer the option to sign for the package? (I've never really thought about this, living in a nice neighborhood) I mean, the customers know what they are getting into I guess but it is still bad if the dominant online store doesn't offer any way to securely get their products.
      - zorpner 4y ago
        Amazon doesn't even give their drivers time to piss, they're not going to wait for signatures.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      I am sure Amazon sees it that way, but I am not at all sure customers see it that way. The "Buy It Now" button doesn't exactly show INCOTERMS. Ultimately, this is all a zero-sum BS game until we start talking about actual solutions, but I don't know enough about what Amazon offers to have an opinion about who needs to do better. If Amazon offers porch locker delivery and convenient central locker locations, sure, let's push customers to use them -- but if Amazon refuses to deliver to porch lockers and offers central lockers that are 20 miles away and open 10am-3pm, let's push Amazon to do better.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  I once had delivery guy give my package to random kids that were loitering outside my door. The way I see it, untill i have recieved it, it's the seller's responsebility
hansvm 4y ago
In a lot of jurisdictions the seller is liable for the package till the consumer receives it, often explicitly calling out doorstep delivery as being insufficient to remove that liability. The seller might separately have a claim against a carrier or thief, but the law is on the side of the consumer regardless of whatever else plays out. Plus, legalities aside, it's usually cheaper to satisfy the consumer than to take the long-term PR hit of their goods sold being costly gambles.
- hansvm 4y ago
  Contradicting myself a bit, I did once have a rather unpleasant experience where I required 4 encounters with Amazon customer service before they would stop charging me for a delivery they failed. It was eventually not a problem, but the hours spent weren't substantially less than a lawsuit for the same (the costs were drastically less at least).

woodruffw 4y ago

This will maybe be too snide, but I want to say it: what an utterly ridiculous system we've contrived for ourselves. People want to live in suburbs, where their residences are separated from commercial areas. This starves city and town centers, leaving only big businesses that are capable of thriving on high volume sales. But we still want the convenience of walking down to their neighborhood store, so we've constructed an entire economic system built on shipping things in disposable boxes around the globe and getting them to people's doorsteps within two business days. But, it turns out, this makes it really easy for someone to walk up to your door and steal your package. So we pay the same companies that starve our neighborhood businesses for the privilege of being surveilled, in turn externalizing the cost of their haphazard practices onto law enforcement and the victimized parties. More middlemen, more theft, more surveillance, more waste. What a farce.

mlyle 4y ago
> But we still want the convenience of walking down to their neighborhood store, so we've constructed an entire economic system built on shipping things in disposable boxes around the globe and getting them to people's doorsteps within two business days. 1. Generally they don't come from across the globe to your doorstep after your order, but from a nearby fulfillment center. 2. Getting things quickly from online shopping is just as nice in cities (actually nicer, because you can get a broader variety of goods quickly) as in suburbs.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Where, pray tell, does the fulfillment center receive them from? Shipping happens regardless (I know my local hardware store doesn't make vacuum cleaners), but the waste of individual boxes and delivery for every single item on demand is obscene. You're right that it's just as nice in cities, if not nicer. But that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it not a maladaptation within our economic system.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > Where, pray tell, does the fulfillment center receive them from? Shipping happens regardless (I know my local hardware store doesn't make vacuum cleaners), Yes, the steps before are very similar to fulfillment centers vs. to distribution centers servicing retail and to individual retail stores (not quite the same-- you need somewhat more fulfillment centers). It's just the last step from the fulfillment center to your house that are different.

justapassenger 4y ago

You're waaaaay overthinking it. Building whole system of analyzing that at scale is very costly, and totally unnecessary. Amazon, as any other carrier, depends on the insurance (self-insurance in this case) and statistics. Some % of package theft will happen, and it's all priced in into their business cost.

pengaru 4y ago

Is this really all that effective until practically everyone has one? They do seem common, but not that ubiquitous, yet. My parents have a Ring camera, my sister has a Nest, and I have DIY raspberry pi cameras. My parents immediate neighbors have none.