4 ms·

If the data is not on your hardware, it is not your data.

by salawat 4y ago

bsedlm 4y ago
what if my data is on my hardware as well as on the cloud hardware? whose data is it anyways?
- cddsadsa 4y ago
  What even is "data"? If you mean "my data is the way in which I interact with a website. It is personal to me and is my property.", then surely you must also say "my mannerisms when I talk to you are personal to me, and you may not remember them without my consent".
  - phailhaus 4y ago
    > you may not remember them without my consent The Quantum Thief series takes this to its extreme, with a technology called "gevulot" which does exactly that by way of a societal exomemory. You can choose to "reveal" any aspect of your self all the way up to your appearance on a person-by-person basis. Highly recommend the book!
  - salawat 4y ago
    The legal system of the U.S. recognizes Third Party Doctrine. I am not an espouser of that legal philosophy. I draw a hard line. Business with me is no one one else's business but me and the customer in question. I believe there is an expectation of privacy in business affairs. I call it Professional Discretion. Yes, before you ask, this makes my life comparatively miserable in today's world. No, I'm not amenable to changing my view on it, because I've seen enough of how the rest of the world treats it to realize just how pathological things become when no one respects anyone else's privacy anymore. You can ask. But it's up to me to say yes. Everyone else has trouble even grokking the concept of asking anymore.
- dspillett 4y ago
  It is shared data. You can use it for whatever you like, so can who-ever controls the other location it is stored at (unless encrypted and only you hold the keys).
- rasz 4y ago
  then the data is on "someone elses computer"
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I was also confused by that expression: the poster very probably meant: "what is stored in the hardware of somebody else you cannot control".
  - salawat 4y ago
    This is correct. The only person you can control the affairs and effects of is you. Big data beat the trust out of me. The bigger the dataset, the more likely it is to attract abuse. I started out my computing career with what others described as a near martyr level of dedication to keeping my customers data private. I'm still that, but after working for everyone else in the industry and finding that the moment you give them a scrap of data, you just kicked off a chain of 3 or 4 bulk transfers to people you aren't even aware of... I can't control them. I can only echo for people the importance of understanding: no one is nice until proven otherwise. Not even me. Trust only what you have made, or what you yourself have been gifted, and can modify.
- salawat 4y ago
  Then the data on your hardware is yours. Your data in the cloud is the data of the cloud service's. Your data is protected. Your cloud service resident data is not. My rule is simple. If I cannot point at the drives my 0's and 1's are ultimately stored on, and the drives I point at do not belong to me, operating in in computers I own, it isn't mine. I don't have a fleet of lawyers to navigate the "technically mine" ToS/EULA minefield. If I own the hardware, and I own the software on it, it is mine. Otherwise, short of levels of audit I find extremely unpleasant, it's an arms length arrangement I personally am intensely uncomfortable with given the track record humanity has demonstrated with prioritizing short-term self-interest against not doing questionable things in the long term. I find this simplistic treatment of things, while making my life and software choices fewer in number, and less polished, tends to keep my friends and family out of trouble and harms way. They know the lecture is coming, and they still come see me anyway.
chickenpotpie 4y ago
I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation. Humans are social animals and we do our best when we work together. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water and private host everything on our own servers because one company is doing something shady. You can own your data on someone else's hardware with strong encryption and common sense legislation that regulates how its accessed.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Reasonable, but your position if taken to extremes can lead to oppressive conformism - eg if you choose not to have or share footage from a security camera, you become an object of suspicion yourself. Relying on 'common sense legislation' assumes a level of probity which is often sadly lacking.
  - chickenpotpie 4y ago
    So don't take my position to the extremes. Top level comment was a very general blanket statement. I'm saying there's a middle ground.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
- salawat 4y ago
  >I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation. Humans are social animals and we do our best when we work together. I agree. Remember, cooperation and trust brought you such gems as: The Trail of Tears Jim Crow Standard Oil The Holocaust MKULTRA COINTELPRO The War on Drugs WWII internment camps The Rwandan Genocide The Uiyghur genocide Systemic Human Rights abuses Plenty of other bits and bobs of nastyness no one wants to admit to. The problem with cooperation without strict limits, is that cooperation is the "might makes right" of our time. Network effects are a hell of a superpower, and like all superpowers, there is a responsibility to really consider whether the world truly is a better place with it. When you build these social constructs, you're putting a lot of motive power into potentially only precious few hands. Cooperation and trust is all good when you're the one watching the local outgroup get curb stomped. Woe be unto the ingroup that becomes the outgroup due to lack of foresight. I like humans that aren't focusing on targeting other groups of humans.
annoyingnoob 4y ago
When you pay for a service that includes storage, then its your storage.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  I wouldn't mind if the "traditionalist" SCOTUS that errybody seems to hate took a good look at the phrase "papers and effects"
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > your storage And factually available to others.
Pakdef 4y ago
Are you saying that the movie studios don't own their movies?
- npteljes 4y ago
  They own it legally, and they are absolutely unsuccessful in stopping unauthorized copies. Same with the Ring videos, no? The owner of camera owns the recordings, maybe, but they can't really control disclosure.
  - Pakdef 4y ago
    > Same with the Ring videos, no? I wonder if they could sue using copyright laws
    - npteljes 4y ago
      I wonder too. I suppose it's not straightforward, maybe there are something written in the ToS and EULA, maybe those things are invalid... the people writing this article weren't sure either. They say that in case you record to a medium locally, you have the copyright, but in case of cloud services, it's unclear. https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/who-owns-home-surveillance-footage/ https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/who-owns-home-sur...

If the data is not on your hardware, it is not your data.

bsedlm 4y ago

what if my data is on my hardware as well as on the cloud hardware? whose data is it anyways?

cddsadsa 4y ago
What even is "data"? If you mean "my data is the way in which I interact with a website. It is personal to me and is my property.", then surely you must also say "my mannerisms when I talk to you are personal to me, and you may not remember them without my consent".
- phailhaus 4y ago
  > you may not remember them without my consent The Quantum Thief series takes this to its extreme, with a technology called "gevulot" which does exactly that by way of a societal exomemory. You can choose to "reveal" any aspect of your self all the way up to your appearance on a person-by-person basis. Highly recommend the book!
- salawat 4y ago
  The legal system of the U.S. recognizes Third Party Doctrine. I am not an espouser of that legal philosophy. I draw a hard line. Business with me is no one one else's business but me and the customer in question. I believe there is an expectation of privacy in business affairs. I call it Professional Discretion. Yes, before you ask, this makes my life comparatively miserable in today's world. No, I'm not amenable to changing my view on it, because I've seen enough of how the rest of the world treats it to realize just how pathological things become when no one respects anyone else's privacy anymore. You can ask. But it's up to me to say yes. Everyone else has trouble even grokking the concept of asking anymore.
dspillett 4y ago
It is shared data. You can use it for whatever you like, so can who-ever controls the other location it is stored at (unless encrypted and only you hold the keys).
rasz 4y ago
then the data is on "someone elses computer"
mdp2021 4y ago
I was also confused by that expression: the poster very probably meant: "what is stored in the hardware of somebody else you cannot control".
- salawat 4y ago
  This is correct. The only person you can control the affairs and effects of is you. Big data beat the trust out of me. The bigger the dataset, the more likely it is to attract abuse. I started out my computing career with what others described as a near martyr level of dedication to keeping my customers data private. I'm still that, but after working for everyone else in the industry and finding that the moment you give them a scrap of data, you just kicked off a chain of 3 or 4 bulk transfers to people you aren't even aware of... I can't control them. I can only echo for people the importance of understanding: no one is nice until proven otherwise. Not even me. Trust only what you have made, or what you yourself have been gifted, and can modify.
salawat 4y ago
Then the data on your hardware is yours. Your data in the cloud is the data of the cloud service's. Your data is protected. Your cloud service resident data is not. My rule is simple. If I cannot point at the drives my 0's and 1's are ultimately stored on, and the drives I point at do not belong to me, operating in in computers I own, it isn't mine. I don't have a fleet of lawyers to navigate the "technically mine" ToS/EULA minefield. If I own the hardware, and I own the software on it, it is mine. Otherwise, short of levels of audit I find extremely unpleasant, it's an arms length arrangement I personally am intensely uncomfortable with given the track record humanity has demonstrated with prioritizing short-term self-interest against not doing questionable things in the long term. I find this simplistic treatment of things, while making my life and software choices fewer in number, and less polished, tends to keep my friends and family out of trouble and harms way. They know the lecture is coming, and they still come see me anyway.

chickenpotpie 4y ago

I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation. Humans are social animals and we do our best when we work together. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water and private host everything on our own servers because one company is doing something shady. You can own your data on someone else's hardware with strong encryption and common sense legislation that regulates how its accessed.

anigbrowl 4y ago
Reasonable, but your position if taken to extremes can lead to oppressive conformism - eg if you choose not to have or share footage from a security camera, you become an object of suspicion yourself. Relying on 'common sense legislation' assumes a level of probity which is often sadly lacking.
- chickenpotpie 4y ago
  So don't take my position to the extremes. Top level comment was a very general blanket statement. I'm saying there's a middle ground.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
salawat 4y ago
>I dislike these beliefs that idealize a world with no trust or cooperation. Humans are social animals and we do our best when we work together. I agree. Remember, cooperation and trust brought you such gems as: The Trail of Tears Jim Crow Standard Oil The Holocaust MKULTRA COINTELPRO The War on Drugs WWII internment camps The Rwandan Genocide The Uiyghur genocide Systemic Human Rights abuses Plenty of other bits and bobs of nastyness no one wants to admit to. The problem with cooperation without strict limits, is that cooperation is the "might makes right" of our time. Network effects are a hell of a superpower, and like all superpowers, there is a responsibility to really consider whether the world truly is a better place with it. When you build these social constructs, you're putting a lot of motive power into potentially only precious few hands. Cooperation and trust is all good when you're the one watching the local outgroup get curb stomped. Woe be unto the ingroup that becomes the outgroup due to lack of foresight. I like humans that aren't focusing on targeting other groups of humans.

annoyingnoob 4y ago

When you pay for a service that includes storage, then its your storage.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
I wouldn't mind if the "traditionalist" SCOTUS that errybody seems to hate took a good look at the phrase "papers and effects"
mdp2021 4y ago
> your storage And factually available to others.

Pakdef 4y ago

Are you saying that the movie studios don't own their movies?

npteljes 4y ago
They own it legally, and they are absolutely unsuccessful in stopping unauthorized copies. Same with the Ring videos, no? The owner of camera owns the recordings, maybe, but they can't really control disclosure.
- Pakdef 4y ago
  > Same with the Ring videos, no? I wonder if they could sue using copyright laws
  - npteljes 4y ago
    I wonder too. I suppose it's not straightforward, maybe there are something written in the ToS and EULA, maybe those things are invalid... the people writing this article weren't sure either. They say that in case you record to a medium locally, you have the copyright, but in case of cloud services, it's unclear. https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/who-owns-home-surveillance-footage/ https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/who-owns-home-sur...