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> make fossil fuels prices higher by increasing taxes Biggest thing? No. In Germany, where I lived for 7 years, this is only one component of a much broader s

by titzer 4y ago

> make fossil fuels prices higher by increasing taxes Biggest thing? No. In Germany, where I lived for 7 years, this is only one component of a much broader strategy that includes investing in electrified infrastructure, including subways, trams, busses, long-haul trains, higher fuel efficiency standards, direct subsidies for renewables, direct investment in renewables, including projects to build them, higher efficiency standards for appliances, lightbulbs, timer-based circuits to turn off lights, broad public awareness of the role of conservation, and not tolerating as much climate change denial bullshit coming out of fossil fuel companies and political parties. It's almost like they decided to mobilize and actually do something, treating this like a problem that can be decomposed and solved by thinking about it and doing stuff instead of tinkering with taxes, which have a tendency to be immediately undone upon the next economic downturn. Hope, they say, is not a strategy.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> It's almost like they decided to mobilize and actually do something, treating this like a problem that can be decomposed and solved by thinking about it and doing stuff instead of tinkering with taxes The incentive to do something comes from making gas prices higher, or “tinkering with taxes”. The US has cheap fuel at the pump, incentivizing people to continue buying SUVs and pickup trucks with 5+ liter engines that get 10 to 20 miles per gallon. It incentivizes people to live on quarter acre lots in far flung suburbs that require individual cars to get around. The people living this lifestyle do not want to spend money on public transport, or dense living. They have the life they want, in big houses on big plots of land, getting around in the luxury of their personal vehicles. They will vote for the politician who continues to enable and make this life easier, they will vote to make roads wider, and prioritize car transportation over walking and bicycling and public transport. Why would I want my taxes to increase to build a rail network when I have my own large, luxurious vehicle with which I can get to anywhere I want, anytime I want, without having to share the space with random others for 20 cents per mile worth of fossil fuel?
- titzer 4y ago
  I can retype my reply if you like, or you could reread it. Government leaders at every level invested real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. They did actual work, you know, planning, studying, proposing, designing, discussing, approving plans and projects, funding actual projects, building actual projects, deploying actual projects. They didn't just adjust a few numbers on paper. They are doing the logistics to accomplish the goals they set out. Funnily enough, things happen when you do them instead of hoping others will.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Government leaders were elected to do that work because the voters wanted the government leaders to invest real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. People in the US are going to vote for a 16 lane highway so their individual cars can go faster, they are not going to vote for a train to replace some of the demand for the 16 lane highway. > Funnily enough, things happen when you do them instead of hoping others will. That is not how allocating tens of billions or trillions of taxpayer dollars works in the US. You have to have the sufficient votes in the legislature to “do things”.
    - titzer 4y ago
      Well I'm gonna stop responding because you keep editing your comments to significantly expand and make different points, so everything is a moving target. (I tinker with comments too sometimes but I am trying to keep it to just minor clarifications). > That is not how allocating tens of billions or trillions of taxpayer dollars works in the US Of course this is oversimplified FUD, but I was under the impression that we were talking about the relative merits and effectiveness of policies designed to result in "electrified infrastructure" and it is absolutely clear that your original assertion of tinkering with taxes does not and never has worked except as part of an actual plan.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >Government leaders at every level invested real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. These are the same leaders who, when Trump at the UN warned four years ago that Germany is endangering itself by increasing dependence on Russia, laughed on camera (<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwgepe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwgepe>). Germany is now facing the consequences of the greatest mistake its leaders have made in 80 years, an existential threat to the German (and thus European) economy and even nation-state. You know this. Yet you instead lecture the USA—home of Tesla—on how ACKSHUALLY it need to build more e-infrastructure. The mind boggles.

by titzer 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> It's almost like they decided to mobilize and actually do something, treating this like a problem that can be decomposed and solved by thinking about it and doing stuff instead of tinkering with taxes The incentive to do something comes from making gas prices higher, or “tinkering with taxes”. The US has cheap fuel at the pump, incentivizing people to continue buying SUVs and pickup trucks with 5+ liter engines that get 10 to 20 miles per gallon. It incentivizes people to live on quarter acre lots in far flung suburbs that require individual cars to get around. The people living this lifestyle do not want to spend money on public transport, or dense living. They have the life they want, in big houses on big plots of land, getting around in the luxury of their personal vehicles. They will vote for the politician who continues to enable and make this life easier, they will vote to make roads wider, and prioritize car transportation over walking and bicycling and public transport. Why would I want my taxes to increase to build a rail network when I have my own large, luxurious vehicle with which I can get to anywhere I want, anytime I want, without having to share the space with random others for 20 cents per mile worth of fossil fuel?

titzer 4y ago
I can retype my reply if you like, or you could reread it. Government leaders at every level invested real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. They did actual work, you know, planning, studying, proposing, designing, discussing, approving plans and projects, funding actual projects, building actual projects, deploying actual projects. They didn't just adjust a few numbers on paper. They are doing the logistics to accomplish the goals they set out. Funnily enough, things happen when you do them instead of hoping others will.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Government leaders were elected to do that work because the voters wanted the government leaders to invest real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. People in the US are going to vote for a 16 lane highway so their individual cars can go faster, they are not going to vote for a train to replace some of the demand for the 16 lane highway. > Funnily enough, things happen when you do them instead of hoping others will. That is not how allocating tens of billions or trillions of taxpayer dollars works in the US. You have to have the sufficient votes in the legislature to “do things”.
  - titzer 4y ago
    Well I'm gonna stop responding because you keep editing your comments to significantly expand and make different points, so everything is a moving target. (I tinker with comments too sometimes but I am trying to keep it to just minor clarifications). > That is not how allocating tens of billions or trillions of taxpayer dollars works in the US Of course this is oversimplified FUD, but I was under the impression that we were talking about the relative merits and effectiveness of policies designed to result in "electrified infrastructure" and it is absolutely clear that your original assertion of tinkering with taxes does not and never has worked except as part of an actual plan.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Government leaders at every level invested real money, time, and effort in building actual infrastructure. These are the same leaders who, when Trump at the UN warned four years ago that Germany is endangering itself by increasing dependence on Russia, laughed on camera (<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwgepe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwgepe>). Germany is now facing the consequences of the greatest mistake its leaders have made in 80 years, an existential threat to the German (and thus European) economy and even nation-state. You know this. Yet you instead lecture the USA—home of Tesla—on how ACKSHUALLY it need to build more e-infrastructure. The mind boggles.