7 ms·

Out of curiosity, why would a Googler elect to use a Linux based workstation as opposed to a macOS workstation? Are they testing Linux binaries? Developing kern

by YPPH 4y ago

Out of curiosity, why would a Googler elect to use a Linux based workstation as opposed to a macOS workstation? Are they testing Linux binaries? Developing kernel extensions? Linux build tools? macOS offers such a superior desktop experience I can't imagine why else you'd ask an employer offering you a macOS machine to substitute it with a Linux one.

vinkelhake 4y ago
The average Googler doesn't get to pick the OS that their workstation runs. It's going to be Linux. The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals - which is something that works well in Linux.
- qmarchi 4y ago
  It depends on the team, and the individual. Generally, a Googler does actually get to pick their OS, it's part of the onboarding process that every Noogler goes through, and you're given 30 days from your start to swap around and test the other platforms (gLinux, macOS, gWindows, or Chrome OS).
  - vinkelhake 4y ago
    I was under the impression that unless you have an actual business need that calls for something other than gLinux, then it's going to be gLinux. Like a Chromium dev who primarily works on the Windows side of Chrome obviously has a need for it. I'll fully admit that my onboarding experience is quite out of date since I've been there for a decade. When I joined I didn't really have a choice for workstation since I only worked on server side stuff. Sounds like things have changed.
    - esprehn 4y ago
      No they're the same. Pretty much all google3 work is done on Linux, but folks usually get 2 machines: a laptop you pick the OS and the workstation (or cloudtop) which is Linux unless there's a special need like chrome eng. Lots of folks do stuff like use Chrome OS + cider + cloudtop though.
      - vinkelhake 4y ago
        Okay, then it sounds like I did give an accurate answer to OP's question (which was about workstations, not laptops) :) I've used different setups over the years, but my workstation has always been Linux. Currently running gLinux on the workstation and cloudtop. My current laptop is running ChromeOS (I'm a ChromeOS swe).
  - YPPH 4y ago
    I was certainly under the impression you got the choice, thanks for confirming that applies generally.
    - p_l 4y ago
      You get a choice for the laptop, but unless your work touches any other platform its going to be done on Linux workstation (or remoting to one), iirc
  - endtime 4y ago
    Are you sure you're talking about workstation and not laptop? What you're saying sounds true for laptops, but I was at Google for 10 years on a variety of teams and I was only ever aware of Linux workstations unless one has a specific need for a different OS. (Or you could get a Chromebox at one point, but then you'd be SSHing to and building on a VM.)
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  > The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals I have all those things open in my work setup, but I also have 3 or 4 different chat apps that don't run on linux, a few music apps that don't run on linux, a ton of Adobe software that doesn't run on linux, a stock trading app that doesn't run on linux, Kindle, a huge number of random productivity apps and games that don't run on Linux, the list goes on. Having to deal with half-baked Linux alternatives or mess with a Windows compatibility layer sounds like a total nightmare. I also think it doesn't support modern DRM so you're SOL if you want to put on Netflix or something in the background.
  - netheril96 4y ago
    > but I also have 3 or 4 different chat apps that don't run on linux, a few music apps that don't run on linux, a ton of Adobe software that doesn't run on linux, a stock trading app that doesn't run on linux, Kindle, a huge number of random productivity apps and games that don't run on Linux, the list goes on. Well, from the viewpoint of Google the corporation, the inability of devs running these software that only detracts them from real work can be considered a feature rather than a bug.
qmarchi 4y ago
Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Additionally, cost is a huge factor as well. Think about the cost of purchasing 100,000 macOS machines. Compare that to purchasing 100,000 generic x86_64 machines from several manufacturers, which are generally more friendly to customization for Google's needs. Feel free to ask questions! Disclaimer: Googler that has a gLinux Desktop, a gLinux Cloud VM, and a macOS laptop. Not in CorpEng.
- enasterosophes 4y ago
  >Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Yeah, it surprises me that more people who use Linux on their infrastructure don't also dogfood it on their personal machines. We run a Linux-based cloud, and my colleagues use a variety of OSes for their daily drivers; I definitely see a difference in capability between those who dogfood and those who think they can get by just fine on Windows or Mac.
  - p_l 4y ago
    As someone currently working in a company that has linux-only product but somehow decided to standardise on macbooks in engineering... It turns out I'm not the only person with the complaint "macOS in Engineering considered Harmful". Pretty much all backend work is done in either a Linux VM using Parallels, or in docker containers, and the developer experience sucks because of that. While theoretically someone could try building some components on mac, that would be a small portion useless to general work. We might not be at the scale of Google, but we have even less mac-specific work and similar Linux focus (hell, I'm working on custom distro even)
  - oceanplexian 4y ago
    It doesn't surprise me at all. It's not the software, it's the hardware. PC hardware is absolutely terrible i.e. cheaply built, poor battery life, poor quality displays, numerous bugs and Linux compatibility issues and so on. My 16" MBP will reliably allow me to work between 15 and 20 hours without needing to recharge. The mini-LED screen is far more advanced than anything on a PC laptop, daylight visible, and can go head-to-head with professional reference displays. The CPU is substantially faster and cooler than Intel's top of the line. The audio is the best on any modern laptop. It's not like there are one or two features that Macs excel at, they are better in too many ways to count.
abeisgreat 4y ago
(Source: Ex-googler for 5yrs) So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Secondly Goobuntu was insanely well integrated with Google’s custom source control and internal ecosystem. No one actually did real engineering work on Macs because it was disallowed for security reasons by policy, but I also never met anyone who wanted to. The tooling and customization on Goobuntu was very good and although I’m sure people asked for a better experience on Mac, the ability to customize and control the Linux dev experience just beat Googles ability to modify MacOS hands down. Also I think there’s very little MacOS offers from a developer perspective that isn’t matched or easily trumped by Linux, but now that’s my personal bias showing ;)
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. I've always found very strange the love for MacOS professed by so many here on HN! > Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Indeed. I use Windows and there's no amount of money you could pay me to use a Mac: at the bare minimum, I want an OLED screen, and there's no such option on MacOS. OTOH, I try Linux every know and then, the terminal experience is still sub-par but the foot terminal emulator, despite how hard it is to configure it, is quite promising!
  - _y5hn 4y ago
    Kitty and alacritty are both good options for Linux. With Kitty you get very easy access to themes.
  - watermelon0 4y ago
    > I want an OLED screen, and there's no such option on MacOS. Mini LED on M1 MBPs is not OLED quality, but it's quite close in many cases. Additionally, in my experience (and from reading various reviews), M1 laptops are really quiet (fans are not loud even under load), have great battery life, and don't get nearly as hot as most (if not all) PC counterparts (under the same load conditions.)
_ZeD_ 4y ago
>>> macOS offers such a superior desktop experience [citation needed] I don't work at google, but, recently I had to discover macos at work, and boy the "desktop experience" you talk about sucks. I miss my linux env (I have a slackware at home) and even my windows one (the old machines at work)
- nprateem 4y ago
  Yeah it still surprises me every time I try to copy and paste a file in finder by right clicking just how crap it is.

by YPPH 4y ago

vinkelhake 4y ago

The average Googler doesn't get to pick the OS that their workstation runs. It's going to be Linux. The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals - which is something that works well in Linux.

qmarchi 4y ago
It depends on the team, and the individual. Generally, a Googler does actually get to pick their OS, it's part of the onboarding process that every Noogler goes through, and you're given 30 days from your start to swap around and test the other platforms (gLinux, macOS, gWindows, or Chrome OS).
- vinkelhake 4y ago
  I was under the impression that unless you have an actual business need that calls for something other than gLinux, then it's going to be gLinux. Like a Chromium dev who primarily works on the Windows side of Chrome obviously has a need for it. I'll fully admit that my onboarding experience is quite out of date since I've been there for a decade. When I joined I didn't really have a choice for workstation since I only worked on server side stuff. Sounds like things have changed.
  - esprehn 4y ago
    No they're the same. Pretty much all google3 work is done on Linux, but folks usually get 2 machines: a laptop you pick the OS and the workstation (or cloudtop) which is Linux unless there's a special need like chrome eng. Lots of folks do stuff like use Chrome OS + cider + cloudtop though.
    - vinkelhake 4y ago
      Okay, then it sounds like I did give an accurate answer to OP's question (which was about workstations, not laptops) :) I've used different setups over the years, but my workstation has always been Linux. Currently running gLinux on the workstation and cloudtop. My current laptop is running ChromeOS (I'm a ChromeOS swe).
- YPPH 4y ago
  I was certainly under the impression you got the choice, thanks for confirming that applies generally.
  - p_l 4y ago
    You get a choice for the laptop, but unless your work touches any other platform its going to be done on Linux workstation (or remoting to one), iirc
- endtime 4y ago
  Are you sure you're talking about workstation and not laptop? What you're saying sounds true for laptops, but I was at Google for 10 years on a variety of teams and I was only ever aware of Linux workstations unless one has a specific need for a different OS. (Or you could get a Chromebox at one point, but then you'd be SSHing to and building on a VM.)
oceanplexian 4y ago
> The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals I have all those things open in my work setup, but I also have 3 or 4 different chat apps that don't run on linux, a few music apps that don't run on linux, a ton of Adobe software that doesn't run on linux, a stock trading app that doesn't run on linux, Kindle, a huge number of random productivity apps and games that don't run on Linux, the list goes on. Having to deal with half-baked Linux alternatives or mess with a Windows compatibility layer sounds like a total nightmare. I also think it doesn't support modern DRM so you're SOL if you want to put on Netflix or something in the background.
- netheril96 4y ago
  > but I also have 3 or 4 different chat apps that don't run on linux, a few music apps that don't run on linux, a ton of Adobe software that doesn't run on linux, a stock trading app that doesn't run on linux, Kindle, a huge number of random productivity apps and games that don't run on Linux, the list goes on. Well, from the viewpoint of Google the corporation, the inability of devs running these software that only detracts them from real work can be considered a feature rather than a bug.

qmarchi 4y ago

Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Additionally, cost is a huge factor as well. Think about the cost of purchasing 100,000 macOS machines. Compare that to purchasing 100,000 generic x86_64 machines from several manufacturers, which are generally more friendly to customization for Google's needs. Feel free to ask questions! Disclaimer: Googler that has a gLinux Desktop, a gLinux Cloud VM, and a macOS laptop. Not in CorpEng.

enasterosophes 4y ago
>Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Yeah, it surprises me that more people who use Linux on their infrastructure don't also dogfood it on their personal machines. We run a Linux-based cloud, and my colleagues use a variety of OSes for their daily drivers; I definitely see a difference in capability between those who dogfood and those who think they can get by just fine on Windows or Mac.
- p_l 4y ago
  As someone currently working in a company that has linux-only product but somehow decided to standardise on macbooks in engineering... It turns out I'm not the only person with the complaint "macOS in Engineering considered Harmful". Pretty much all backend work is done in either a Linux VM using Parallels, or in docker containers, and the developer experience sucks because of that. While theoretically someone could try building some components on mac, that would be a small portion useless to general work. We might not be at the scale of Google, but we have even less mac-specific work and similar Linux focus (hell, I'm working on custom distro even)
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  It doesn't surprise me at all. It's not the software, it's the hardware. PC hardware is absolutely terrible i.e. cheaply built, poor battery life, poor quality displays, numerous bugs and Linux compatibility issues and so on. My 16" MBP will reliably allow me to work between 15 and 20 hours without needing to recharge. The mini-LED screen is far more advanced than anything on a PC laptop, daylight visible, and can go head-to-head with professional reference displays. The CPU is substantially faster and cooler than Intel's top of the line. The audio is the best on any modern laptop. It's not like there are one or two features that Macs excel at, they are better in too many ways to count.

abeisgreat 4y ago

(Source: Ex-googler for 5yrs) So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Secondly Goobuntu was insanely well integrated with Google’s custom source control and internal ecosystem. No one actually did real engineering work on Macs because it was disallowed for security reasons by policy, but I also never met anyone who wanted to. The tooling and customization on Goobuntu was very good and although I’m sure people asked for a better experience on Mac, the ability to customize and control the Linux dev experience just beat Googles ability to modify MacOS hands down. Also I think there’s very little MacOS offers from a developer perspective that isn’t matched or easily trumped by Linux, but now that’s my personal bias showing ;)

csdvrx 4y ago
> So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. I've always found very strange the love for MacOS professed by so many here on HN! > Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Indeed. I use Windows and there's no amount of money you could pay me to use a Mac: at the bare minimum, I want an OLED screen, and there's no such option on MacOS. OTOH, I try Linux every know and then, the terminal experience is still sub-par but the foot terminal emulator, despite how hard it is to configure it, is quite promising!
- _y5hn 4y ago
  Kitty and alacritty are both good options for Linux. With Kitty you get very easy access to themes.
- watermelon0 4y ago
  > I want an OLED screen, and there's no such option on MacOS. Mini LED on M1 MBPs is not OLED quality, but it's quite close in many cases. Additionally, in my experience (and from reading various reviews), M1 laptops are really quiet (fans are not loud even under load), have great battery life, and don't get nearly as hot as most (if not all) PC counterparts (under the same load conditions.)

_ZeD_ 4y ago

>>> macOS offers such a superior desktop experience [citation needed] I don't work at google, but, recently I had to discover macos at work, and boy the "desktop experience" you talk about sucks. I miss my linux env (I have a slackware at home) and even my windows one (the old machines at work)

nprateem 4y ago
Yeah it still surprises me every time I try to copy and paste a file in finder by right clicking just how crap it is.