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This comment confuses me. Are you saying that their pay is good for established authors, but they pay only a token amount for authors that they classify as “sta

This comment confuses me. Are you saying that their pay is good for established authors, but they pay only a token amount for authors that they classify as “starting out”? Because the rates you quote are abusive. People who accept token payments for work, out of vanity or a false concept of “exposure”, damage the market for those of us who actually need to get paid for our writing. Such people are the pariahs of the freelance world.

ghaff 4y ago
People have many different reasons for writing. I've actually had this discussion with authors and you seem to be suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to accept token payments for work if they aren't dependent on it directly as a full-time occupation. Are you going to ban bloggers etc. in general because they dilute the market for writing at sustainable professional rates? Amateurs (or pros using an activity like writing in support of some other professional activity) make it more difficult for would-be pros--see also photography, people who do open source development on their own time, etc. Too bad.
- leephillips 4y ago
  There is no suggestion of compulsion in my comment. I’m asking that people stop hurting their fellow authors by participating in a race to the bottom, simply because they’re flattered that a for-profit corporation is willing to take their product for essentially no compensation. This has nothing to do with contributing to open-source software, working for nonprofits for a social good, etc. I do all those things. But if a business or a startup with dollar signs in their eyes wants to consult with me, or publish my work, they’re going to pay. And it’s unethical to give away your work under these circumstances. Although I have sympathy for libertarian points of view, I think that minimum wage laws are important. Without them, you have a race to the bottom for wages for unskilled labor, resulting in widespread suffering. We don’t have minimum wage laws for writers or freelance programmers, so we have to depend on our personal ethics. Please stop giving away your product.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    My career has benefitted in many ways from writing even if not directly in terms if money. It’s not really my issue that I’m competing with others who want to directly monetize.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    I think you’ve got this a bit twisted, particularly with the notion of for-profit organizations taking with no compensation. Speaking strictly in short fiction, frankly, the vast majority of magazines lose money. Of the magazines that don’t lose money, the vast majority of those don’t make enough to earn the producer/editor(s)/first readers/etc. anything resembling minimum wage. The exceptions are a mere handful: the big 3, Tor, Uncanny Magazine, Clarkesworld, maybe Nature’s Futures section.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      Uhh, this thread started with somebody giving their work away to Tor.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        No, the article in question is about a person who was paid over a thousand dollars for their work to be purchased by Tor.
        leephillips 4y ago
        I’m not talking about the article. Look at the comment that I originally replied to.
        SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        That person was about someone who got paid 50$ at a completely different place?? Am I missing something?
barry-cotter 4y ago
> People who accept token payments for work, out of vanity or a false concept of “exposure”, damage the market for those of us who actually need to get paid for our writing. Such people are the pariahs of the freelance world. If you want to work in an arena where people are happy to do so for free you need to either get used to it or find a way to make competition illegal or very difficult. That way you can make things better for yourself at the expense of the consumer and people wanting to break in who aren’t related to anyone who matters. For an example see the Screen Actors’ Guild or the American Federation of Musicians.

ghaff 4y ago

People have many different reasons for writing. I've actually had this discussion with authors and you seem to be suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to accept token payments for work if they aren't dependent on it directly as a full-time occupation. Are you going to ban bloggers etc. in general because they dilute the market for writing at sustainable professional rates? Amateurs (or pros using an activity like writing in support of some other professional activity) make it more difficult for would-be pros--see also photography, people who do open source development on their own time, etc. Too bad.

leephillips 4y ago
There is no suggestion of compulsion in my comment. I’m asking that people stop hurting their fellow authors by participating in a race to the bottom, simply because they’re flattered that a for-profit corporation is willing to take their product for essentially no compensation. This has nothing to do with contributing to open-source software, working for nonprofits for a social good, etc. I do all those things. But if a business or a startup with dollar signs in their eyes wants to consult with me, or publish my work, they’re going to pay. And it’s unethical to give away your work under these circumstances. Although I have sympathy for libertarian points of view, I think that minimum wage laws are important. Without them, you have a race to the bottom for wages for unskilled labor, resulting in widespread suffering. We don’t have minimum wage laws for writers or freelance programmers, so we have to depend on our personal ethics. Please stop giving away your product.
- ghaff 4y ago
  My career has benefitted in many ways from writing even if not directly in terms if money. It’s not really my issue that I’m competing with others who want to directly monetize.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  I think you’ve got this a bit twisted, particularly with the notion of for-profit organizations taking with no compensation. Speaking strictly in short fiction, frankly, the vast majority of magazines lose money. Of the magazines that don’t lose money, the vast majority of those don’t make enough to earn the producer/editor(s)/first readers/etc. anything resembling minimum wage. The exceptions are a mere handful: the big 3, Tor, Uncanny Magazine, Clarkesworld, maybe Nature’s Futures section.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    Uhh, this thread started with somebody giving their work away to Tor.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
      No, the article in question is about a person who was paid over a thousand dollars for their work to be purchased by Tor.
      - leephillips 4y ago
        I’m not talking about the article. Look at the comment that I originally replied to.
        SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        That person was about someone who got paid 50$ at a completely different place?? Am I missing something?

barry-cotter 4y ago

> People who accept token payments for work, out of vanity or a false concept of “exposure”, damage the market for those of us who actually need to get paid for our writing. Such people are the pariahs of the freelance world. If you want to work in an arena where people are happy to do so for free you need to either get used to it or find a way to make competition illegal or very difficult. That way you can make things better for yourself at the expense of the consumer and people wanting to break in who aren’t related to anyone who matters. For an example see the Screen Actors’ Guild or the American Federation of Musicians.