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> To stop seeing the world as purely an evil constructed on the mass graves of the innocent. Even if it were true (and in some sense it is) this is still the w

> To stop seeing the world as purely an evil constructed on the mass graves of the innocent. Even if it were true (and in some sense it is) this is still the world we have. [...] To be sure, some things can be done, within a generation or two. Maybe three. But after a while, what's done is done and you have to move on. Putting aside the rhetorical tools you're discussing, what would you say to people who currently feel the effects of these historical, and contemporary oppressions? People with unwanted pregnancies who find themselves unable to access abortions, African-Americans who are descended from families that were unable to purchase property they would have been able to afford due to redlining and are thus at a disadvantage, Gen X Jews whose parents were denied entry to elite schools and whose families thus suffered economically, gay and trans people who are currently, in the US, facing a government that has all but stated it wants to eliminate even the tenuous hold on legal existence they have? I am all for telling people to find the good in the world. There is a lot of it! But some of these negative phenomena that sociologists describe have real consequences for real people in the present day, and I don't really see how "just stop thinking about it" is a solution for them.

javajosh 4y ago
>what would you say to people who currently feel the effects of these historical, and contemporary oppressions? I would have quoted me a bit more generously. This is what I would tell them (and myself, since we are all oppressed, and all of our ancestors were oppressed, at some point, by someone): >We cannot, in each successive generation, reform ourselves to undo the injustices of the past, not only because it's practically impossible but because the meaning of injustice changes. And society is finite in its malleability. To be sure, some things can be done, within a generation or two. Maybe three. But after a while, what's done is done and you have to move on.
- NoraCodes 4y ago
  Fair enough - I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't said that, the quote was merely to delimit the area I was addressing. Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."?
  - throwawayacc2 4y ago
    > Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."? I don’t know about the guy you’re asking but the way I would tackle this question is, first by point out in some cases the “harm” is only perceived. To give you an example of this, a claim often made is “trans kids are being harmed due to lack of access to hormones/surgery”. I find this revolting. I would consider, for this example at least, the current system is doing good in protecting them, certainly it is not harming them. For me and many people, changing this would mean creating a social structure that is harmful. What will happen if the system is now changed to allow children to take hormones but in a few decades this will be broadly considered a harmful social structure? Another point I would bring up is, there are various ways problems can be addressed. Asking for change begs the question what change precisely? It is very possible agreement on the existence of the problem can be reached while the solution remains contentious. A more accurate description of reality would be I think “Some problems exist and some problems are nothing more than attempts at getting power, privilege or attention. And while the problems that are generally agreed upon to exist should be fixed, the solution is often unclear and the proposals open up their own set of problems”
    - NoraCodes 4y ago
      > To give you an example of this, a claim often made is “trans kids are being harmed due to lack of access to hormones/surgery”. I find this revolting. I would consider, for this example at least, the current system is doing good in protecting them, certainly it is not harming them. Then I probably don't care about your opinion on this - we are almost certainly speaking from completely different ontological perspectives. I asked the person I was replying to, because they seemed to have values at least somewhat compatible with mine, and thus I expect to learn something from them.
      - throwawayacc2 4y ago
        Fair enough. But, something has cough my attention. > we are almost certainly speaking from completely different ontological perspectives Do you consider me ontologically evil? Am I, as some people on the internet often refer to those with my sense of mortality, “a demon wearing human flash”?

javajosh 4y ago

>what would you say to people who currently feel the effects of these historical, and contemporary oppressions? I would have quoted me a bit more generously. This is what I would tell them (and myself, since we are all oppressed, and all of our ancestors were oppressed, at some point, by someone): >We cannot, in each successive generation, reform ourselves to undo the injustices of the past, not only because it's practically impossible but because the meaning of injustice changes. And society is finite in its malleability. To be sure, some things can be done, within a generation or two. Maybe three. But after a while, what's done is done and you have to move on.

NoraCodes 4y ago
Fair enough - I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't said that, the quote was merely to delimit the area I was addressing. Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."?
- throwawayacc2 4y ago
  > Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."? I don’t know about the guy you’re asking but the way I would tackle this question is, first by point out in some cases the “harm” is only perceived. To give you an example of this, a claim often made is “trans kids are being harmed due to lack of access to hormones/surgery”. I find this revolting. I would consider, for this example at least, the current system is doing good in protecting them, certainly it is not harming them. For me and many people, changing this would mean creating a social structure that is harmful. What will happen if the system is now changed to allow children to take hormones but in a few decades this will be broadly considered a harmful social structure? Another point I would bring up is, there are various ways problems can be addressed. Asking for change begs the question what change precisely? It is very possible agreement on the existence of the problem can be reached while the solution remains contentious. A more accurate description of reality would be I think “Some problems exist and some problems are nothing more than attempts at getting power, privilege or attention. And while the problems that are generally agreed upon to exist should be fixed, the solution is often unclear and the proposals open up their own set of problems”
  - NoraCodes 4y ago
    > To give you an example of this, a claim often made is “trans kids are being harmed due to lack of access to hormones/surgery”. I find this revolting. I would consider, for this example at least, the current system is doing good in protecting them, certainly it is not harming them. Then I probably don't care about your opinion on this - we are almost certainly speaking from completely different ontological perspectives. I asked the person I was replying to, because they seemed to have values at least somewhat compatible with mine, and thus I expect to learn something from them.
    - throwawayacc2 4y ago
      Fair enough. But, something has cough my attention. > we are almost certainly speaking from completely different ontological perspectives Do you consider me ontologically evil? Am I, as some people on the internet often refer to those with my sense of mortality, “a demon wearing human flash”?