4 ms·

For fun, get your English-accented acquaintances to pronounce "drawing". Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel

by ncmncm 4y ago

For fun, get your English-accented acquaintances to pronounce "drawing". Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". They really are compelled to insert an R there. That is one of the phonological rules of their variety of English; it's how you avoid running one vowel into another vowel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R Complaining about this is the equivalent of complaining about how Americans "feel" compelled to insert a vowel into the name Gbagbo, pronouncing it guh-bagbo. They don't just feel compelled; that is a genuine requirement of their language. It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".
- ncmncm 4y ago
  No. If you had been correct, there would have been no reason to post what I did. But you are 100% wrong on both counts, and I did. (For amusement, see rndmio's comment above.)
  - schoen 4y ago
    I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection while thaumasiotes is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics There are examples in the hypercorrection article about people adding an /h-/ in a very similar situation, so what you describe clearly can happen. But are you sure that the R example falls into that category? It seems to be a distinction about how conscious the change is, or at what layer of language it happens. Isn't that an empirical question that could be tested?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Strictly speaking, the masses adopting rhotic pronunciation was, originally, an effort at mimicking a privileged-class affectation. The extra "R" in "drawRing" did not mimic anything, though, but seemed required by the imperfectly deduced rule. Those in actual contact with the privileged class had plenty of examples to, er*, draw upon, denied to those without. Class markers in speech are always a moving target, a sort of low-grade arms race: low stakes for the upper class, high stakes for lower. So, pronouncing it "drawRing" is a lower-class marker, similar in a way to "aks" for "ask" in American English. As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. [*] "er" is pronounced "uh" or "eh", rhotically.
      - yencabulator 4y ago
        > As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. I'm sorry but pretty much everyone who grew up with English as a second language would like to disagree. Hearing "drawRing" to this day throws me off -- I have to repeat the noise to myself internally to make sure I understood it right.
        thaumasiotes 4y ago
        > I'm sorry but pretty much everyone who grew up with English as a second language would like to disagree. Not to put too fine a point on it, but their opinion doesn't count. Foreign speakers have no say in what's legitimate and may be confused by absolutely anything.
        yencabulator 4y ago
        If you wish to argue that, I'd suggest you guard your absolute clauses a bit more carefully, as they now suddenly aren't absolute. You said "produce no misunderstanding", I demonstrated that they do.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        There are now many, many more foreign speakers of English than native. They definitely have had and are having an effect, collectively, on how the language evolves.
- catskul2 4y ago
  > It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right. ... > It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel". I think you're misunderstanding here. There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. It's not taught in school. It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher when they say "(Mel and) me accused her".
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    I'm not misunderstanding anything. > There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. That is true. > It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher That is also true. But your own example is telling you that there is also no situation where "Mel and I accused her" works. Sentences in that form do not naturally occur in English; they must be taught in school. The correct form would be "Me and Mel accused her". Intrusive R isn't like that. It is a feature of the language, not something dictated to speakers by a formal education system.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      100% wrong, again.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        You like saying that, but so far you've shown no evidence that you have any idea what you're talking about. Compare the article on intrusive R I linked before: > This is now common enough in parts of England that, by 1997, the linguist John C. Wells considered it objectively part of Received Pronunciation, though he noted that it was still stigmatized as an incorrect pronunciation, as it is or was in some other standardized non-rhotic accents. Wells writes that at least in RP, "linking /r/ and intrusive /r/ are distinct only historically and orthographically".[17] Where footnote 17 cites a paper from 1982.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rndmio 4y ago
> Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". Am British, literally no one I know personally puts an extra R in when pronouncing drawing. I have heard it said that way before but you certainly couldn’t say that “most” Brits do it.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Apparently, "most" of some poorly characterized strata of Brits. I am amused that your sibling comment insists "drawRing" is correct British pronunciation.

by ncmncm 4y ago

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". They really are compelled to insert an R there. That is one of the phonological rules of their variety of English; it's how you avoid running one vowel into another vowel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R Complaining about this is the equivalent of complaining about how Americans "feel" compelled to insert a vowel into the name Gbagbo, pronouncing it guh-bagbo. They don't just feel compelled; that is a genuine requirement of their language. It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".

ncmncm 4y ago
No. If you had been correct, there would have been no reason to post what I did. But you are 100% wrong on both counts, and I did. (For amusement, see rndmio's comment above.)
- schoen 4y ago
  I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection while thaumasiotes is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics There are examples in the hypercorrection article about people adding an /h-/ in a very similar situation, so what you describe clearly can happen. But are you sure that the R example falls into that category? It seems to be a distinction about how conscious the change is, or at what layer of language it happens. Isn't that an empirical question that could be tested?
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Strictly speaking, the masses adopting rhotic pronunciation was, originally, an effort at mimicking a privileged-class affectation. The extra "R" in "drawRing" did not mimic anything, though, but seemed required by the imperfectly deduced rule. Those in actual contact with the privileged class had plenty of examples to, er*, draw upon, denied to those without. Class markers in speech are always a moving target, a sort of low-grade arms race: low stakes for the upper class, high stakes for lower. So, pronouncing it "drawRing" is a lower-class marker, similar in a way to "aks" for "ask" in American English. As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. [*] "er" is pronounced "uh" or "eh", rhotically.
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      > As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. I'm sorry but pretty much everyone who grew up with English as a second language would like to disagree. Hearing "drawRing" to this day throws me off -- I have to repeat the noise to myself internally to make sure I understood it right.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        > I'm sorry but pretty much everyone who grew up with English as a second language would like to disagree. Not to put too fine a point on it, but their opinion doesn't count. Foreign speakers have no say in what's legitimate and may be confused by absolutely anything.
        yencabulator 4y ago
        If you wish to argue that, I'd suggest you guard your absolute clauses a bit more carefully, as they now suddenly aren't absolute. You said "produce no misunderstanding", I demonstrated that they do.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        There are now many, many more foreign speakers of English than native. They definitely have had and are having an effect, collectively, on how the language evolves.
catskul2 4y ago
> It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right. ... > It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel". I think you're misunderstanding here. There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. It's not taught in school. It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher when they say "(Mel and) me accused her".
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  I'm not misunderstanding anything. > There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. That is true. > It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher That is also true. But your own example is telling you that there is also no situation where "Mel and I accused her" works. Sentences in that form do not naturally occur in English; they must be taught in school. The correct form would be "Me and Mel accused her". Intrusive R isn't like that. It is a feature of the language, not something dictated to speakers by a formal education system.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    100% wrong, again.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      You like saying that, but so far you've shown no evidence that you have any idea what you're talking about. Compare the article on intrusive R I linked before: > This is now common enough in parts of England that, by 1997, the linguist John C. Wells considered it objectively part of Received Pronunciation, though he noted that it was still stigmatized as an incorrect pronunciation, as it is or was in some other standardized non-rhotic accents. Wells writes that at least in RP, "linking /r/ and intrusive /r/ are distinct only historically and orthographically".[17] Where footnote 17 cites a paper from 1982.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rndmio 4y ago

> Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". Am British, literally no one I know personally puts an extra R in when pronouncing drawing. I have heard it said that way before but you certainly couldn’t say that “most” Brits do it.

ncmncm 4y ago
Apparently, "most" of some poorly characterized strata of Brits. I am amused that your sibling comment insists "drawRing" is correct British pronunciation.