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> British spellings of foreign words really cause tremendous damage to the pronunciations used by rhotic speakers. It's such a strange thing to use an 'r' to m

by TillE 4y ago

> British spellings of foreign words really cause tremendous damage to the pronunciations used by rhotic speakers. It's such a strange thing to use an 'r' to modify the sound of the preceding vowel, and it's not even as if it's 100% consistent, because all English is a mess. This expectation also leads to comical situations like the typical British pronunciation of "pasta". I guess the Italians should have spelled it parsta.

Smaug123 4y ago
Got a source for your "typical British pronunciation" of "pasta" being non-Italian? I read your comment as asserting that typical Brits pronounce it as "par-sta" with a non-rhotic 'r', but I don't think I've ever heard anyone except the Australian John Torode pronounce it that way.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > I read your comment as asserting that typical Brits pronounce it as "par-sta" with a non-rhotic 'r' That is exactly the opposite of what TillE wrote. If that were how the British already pronounced the word, there would be no need to change the spelling. > Got a source for your "typical British pronunciation" of "pasta" being non-Italian? This is just infantile. You can verify the pronunciation yourself in any number of ways. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pasta https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pasta (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæs.tə/) https://youglish.com/pronounce/pasta/english/uk https://youglish.com/pronounce/pasta/english/uk , if you want audio samples. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pasta#Pronunciation https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pasta#Pronunciation (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæstə/)
ncmncm 4y ago
For fun, get your English-accented acquaintances to pronounce "drawing". Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". They really are compelled to insert an R there. That is one of the phonological rules of their variety of English; it's how you avoid running one vowel into another vowel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R Complaining about this is the equivalent of complaining about how Americans "feel" compelled to insert a vowel into the name Gbagbo, pronouncing it guh-bagbo. They don't just feel compelled; that is a genuine requirement of their language. It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    No. If you had been correct, there would have been no reason to post what I did. But you are 100% wrong on both counts, and I did. (For amusement, see rndmio's comment above.)
    - schoen 4y ago
      I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection while thaumasiotes is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics There are examples in the hypercorrection article about people adding an /h-/ in a very similar situation, so what you describe clearly can happen. But are you sure that the R example falls into that category? It seems to be a distinction about how conscious the change is, or at what layer of language it happens. Isn't that an empirical question that could be tested?
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Strictly speaking, the masses adopting rhotic pronunciation was, originally, an effort at mimicking a privileged-class affectation. The extra "R" in "drawRing" did not mimic anything, though, but seemed required by the imperfectly deduced rule. Those in actual contact with the privileged class had plenty of examples to, er*, draw upon, denied to those without. Class markers in speech are always a moving target, a sort of low-grade arms race: low stakes for the upper class, high stakes for lower. So, pronouncing it "drawRing" is a lower-class marker, similar in a way to "aks" for "ask" in American English. As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. [*] "er" is pronounced "uh" or "eh", rhotically.
bradwood 4y ago
But Brits can't pronounce their own words properly half the time, in English! Ask a Brit to pronounce "drawing" - you'll get "drawring" back. Source: expat living in Britain
- I_complete_me 4y ago
  I believe it's called the intrusive 'r'. The upside of it is that it makes the following joke work: What do you call a one-eyed dinosaur? A dyathinkhesawus. Without the intrusive 'r' this joke would not work.
  - bradwood 4y ago
    I moaned about this on https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/317198/the-r-sound-in-drawing-in-british-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/317198/the-r-sou.... Some good answers to the linked dupe.
    - I_complete_me 4y ago
      Did not know about that discussion. As a "rhotic" person it makes me wince but I accept different accents. In any chat that leans towards getting heavy on this I refer people to The (great) Proclaimers song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=066oSmDRKPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=066oSmDRKPA

by TillE 4y ago

Smaug123 4y ago

Got a source for your "typical British pronunciation" of "pasta" being non-Italian? I read your comment as asserting that typical Brits pronounce it as "par-sta" with a non-rhotic 'r', but I don't think I've ever heard anyone except the Australian John Torode pronounce it that way.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I read your comment as asserting that typical Brits pronounce it as "par-sta" with a non-rhotic 'r' That is exactly the opposite of what TillE wrote. If that were how the British already pronounced the word, there would be no need to change the spelling. > Got a source for your "typical British pronunciation" of "pasta" being non-Italian? This is just infantile. You can verify the pronunciation yourself in any number of ways. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pasta https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pasta (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæs.tə/) https://youglish.com/pronounce/pasta/english/uk https://youglish.com/pronounce/pasta/english/uk , if you want audio samples. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pasta#Pronunciation https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pasta#Pronunciation (UK pronunciation: /ˈpæstə/)

ncmncm 4y ago

For fun, get your English-accented acquaintances to pronounce "drawing". Officially, the Queen's English says this is pronounced "drawing". But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> But most Brits feel compelled to insert an R, "drawRing". They really are compelled to insert an R there. That is one of the phonological rules of their variety of English; it's how you avoid running one vowel into another vowel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R Complaining about this is the equivalent of complaining about how Americans "feel" compelled to insert a vowel into the name Gbagbo, pronouncing it guh-bagbo. They don't just feel compelled; that is a genuine requirement of their language. It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".
- ncmncm 4y ago
  No. If you had been correct, there would have been no reason to post what I did. But you are 100% wrong on both counts, and I did. (For amusement, see rndmio's comment above.)
  - schoen 4y ago
    I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection while thaumasiotes is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics There are examples in the hypercorrection article about people adding an /h-/ in a very similar situation, so what you describe clearly can happen. But are you sure that the R example falls into that category? It seems to be a distinction about how conscious the change is, or at what layer of language it happens. Isn't that an empirical question that could be tested?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Strictly speaking, the masses adopting rhotic pronunciation was, originally, an effort at mimicking a privileged-class affectation. The extra "R" in "drawRing" did not mimic anything, though, but seemed required by the imperfectly deduced rule. Those in actual contact with the privileged class had plenty of examples to, er*, draw upon, denied to those without. Class markers in speech are always a moving target, a sort of low-grade arms race: low stakes for the upper class, high stakes for lower. So, pronouncing it "drawRing" is a lower-class marker, similar in a way to "aks" for "ask" in American English. As always, all of these pronunciations are legitimate and produce no misunderstanding. [*] "er" is pronounced "uh" or "eh", rhotically.

bradwood 4y ago

But Brits can't pronounce their own words properly half the time, in English! Ask a Brit to pronounce "drawing" - you'll get "drawring" back. Source: expat living in Britain

I_complete_me 4y ago
I believe it's called the intrusive 'r'. The upside of it is that it makes the following joke work: What do you call a one-eyed dinosaur? A dyathinkhesawus. Without the intrusive 'r' this joke would not work.
- bradwood 4y ago
  I moaned about this on https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/317198/the-r-sound-in-drawing-in-british-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/317198/the-r-sou.... Some good answers to the linked dupe.
  - I_complete_me 4y ago
    Did not know about that discussion. As a "rhotic" person it makes me wince but I accept different accents. In any chat that leans towards getting heavy on this I refer people to The (great) Proclaimers song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=066oSmDRKPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=066oSmDRKPA