3 ms·

> Worker power was maybe never lower than it was between 2008 and 2020. Wages blew inflation out of the water through the later half of that period, so I'm not

> Worker power was maybe never lower than it was between 2008 and 2020. Wages blew inflation out of the water through the later half of that period, so I'm not sure that tracks. Wages struggle to keep up with inflation, let alone beat it, when workers don't have much power. The reality is that the job market was very strong from the mid-2010s onward, save the COVID shutdown period. Although, obviously, not uniformly so. It is true that the job market was difficult at the beginning of Uber's existence, which is why I said "most of" not "all of". I suppose what you're saying is that the exploitation was short-lived during their early days or limited to certain local markets?

kennywinker 4y ago
> I suppose what you're saying is that the exploitation was short-lived during their early days? Not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying 2008-2020 was a bi-modal situation. Just like the COVID shutdown was: recall how for many workers, it meant working from home and a buildup of funds because there was nowhere to spend it. For another group it meant struggling, gig work, moving back in with parents, and draining your savings - because their entire industry was just GONE. Depending on what numbers you look at, and at what resolution, you see the first group, the second group, or both. So wages went up during the 2010-2020 period, but for who? Minimum wage didn’t keep up with inflation in most places during that period. More lower paying jobs, less overall power. What are you going to do, quit this $10/hour job and go work at another $10/hour job? Why bother
- randomdata 4y ago
  > Minimum wage didn’t keep up with inflation in most places during that period. Locally, minimum wage increased 50% over that period. Inflation was 17% over the same period. Like I asked before, maybe they only exploited workers in certain markets? There is no evidence of the bi-modal situation that you refer to locally. Obviously not all locales are equal, but the remark is presented without local information, hence wanting to know more about what it means. Does Uber treat workers like gold in some markets? > What are you going to do, quit this $10/hour job and go work at another $10/hour job? Why bother The reason you'd go to the other $10/hr job is to not face the same exploitation found at Uber. If all jobs on the market are seen as being equally fair, you're not being exploited... You might not be worth what you wish you were, but that's not what exploitation is.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    I’m glad in your area minimum wage has beaten inflation - I’d argue it actually hasn’t, because to my knowledge minimum wage hasn’t kept up with inflation anywhere. It may have gone up 50% in the past ten years, but it languished for decades before that. But that’s a side point. On the main point - first in most US states minimum wage has not kept up with inflation. Second - does minimum wage apply to gig workers in your location? Because in most places they have successfully classified their employees as “contractors”. As to your point, uber is in many many places in the world - and the degree at which they have exploited their workers is variable. Where I am, uber costs about the same as a regular taxi did before uber arrived. But taxis drivers made and do make more than uber drivers. That sounds like a middle man got in and lowered wages. The same work, less money for workers, more for middle men? That is exploitation.
    - randomdata 4y ago
      > It may have gone up 50% in the past ten years, but it languished for decades before that. I appreciate your attempt to find some kind of reply, but, locally, minimum wage is up 1,567% since the first year it was in effect. Inflation is up only 810% over the same period. That's a substantial real gain. > Second - does minimum wage apply to gig workers in your location? As of a couple of months ago, yes. But, really, was anyone turning on their car for less than minimum wage before? You'd be losing money hand over fist doing that. There is no purpose in driving for Uber if you are losing money. Doing nothing at all is the clear winner in that scenario. > Because in most places they have successfully classified their employees as “contractors”. Which is fair. It's clearly a contractor position by every measure, and remains a contractor position here even with the recent laws surrounding those contracted services. As you can see, contractor doesn't have to mean a free-for-all. Contractors can be given worker rights too. > But taxis drivers made and do make more than uber drivers. That sounds like a middle man got in and lowered wages. Taxis, in many jurisdictions, have historically held a monopoly/oligopoly. That sounds more like new competition has increased competitiveness, which doesn't come as any surprise. A lowered price isn't the same as exploitation, though.
      - 4y ago
- aperson_hello 4y ago
  Minimum wage arguments are a red herring in this economy. No one except the young, disabled, and felons are getting paid minimum wage now. Looking at prevailing "low skill" wages, they more than doubled for starting positions in my area since 2010. From something like $8 in 2010 to something like $16-17 today.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    Do the young, disabled, and felons deserve to suffer so you can get a coffee for 50c cheaper? And you forgot immigrants, the other large group working minimum wage jobs.
    - aperson_hello 4y ago
      Good point re: immigrants! I was making an inflation/wages argument, not a value-based one here. The prevailing minimum wage (for 95% of "low skill" jobs) is significantly different than federal minimum wages.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        I think my point was actually a little off as well. Framing it as someone suffering for your cheap goods. Some things ARE like that. Fast fashion's $6 t-shirts come to mind. But service industry stuff like your cup of coffee - it's usually more like: does someone have to suffer so that you can get your cup of coffee and someone can become VERY rich off it.
  - moe091 4y ago
    that's just not true. Maybe in some areas, definitely not in others. Do you actually know a lot of people working at CVS or dollar stores or supermarkets, etc? Wawa is paying $15 an hour and every single other place in my area is significantly below that

kennywinker 4y ago

> I suppose what you're saying is that the exploitation was short-lived during their early days? Not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying 2008-2020 was a bi-modal situation. Just like the COVID shutdown was: recall how for many workers, it meant working from home and a buildup of funds because there was nowhere to spend it. For another group it meant struggling, gig work, moving back in with parents, and draining your savings - because their entire industry was just GONE. Depending on what numbers you look at, and at what resolution, you see the first group, the second group, or both. So wages went up during the 2010-2020 period, but for who? Minimum wage didn’t keep up with inflation in most places during that period. More lower paying jobs, less overall power. What are you going to do, quit this $10/hour job and go work at another $10/hour job? Why bother

randomdata 4y ago
> Minimum wage didn’t keep up with inflation in most places during that period. Locally, minimum wage increased 50% over that period. Inflation was 17% over the same period. Like I asked before, maybe they only exploited workers in certain markets? There is no evidence of the bi-modal situation that you refer to locally. Obviously not all locales are equal, but the remark is presented without local information, hence wanting to know more about what it means. Does Uber treat workers like gold in some markets? > What are you going to do, quit this $10/hour job and go work at another $10/hour job? Why bother The reason you'd go to the other $10/hr job is to not face the same exploitation found at Uber. If all jobs on the market are seen as being equally fair, you're not being exploited... You might not be worth what you wish you were, but that's not what exploitation is.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I’m glad in your area minimum wage has beaten inflation - I’d argue it actually hasn’t, because to my knowledge minimum wage hasn’t kept up with inflation anywhere. It may have gone up 50% in the past ten years, but it languished for decades before that. But that’s a side point. On the main point - first in most US states minimum wage has not kept up with inflation. Second - does minimum wage apply to gig workers in your location? Because in most places they have successfully classified their employees as “contractors”. As to your point, uber is in many many places in the world - and the degree at which they have exploited their workers is variable. Where I am, uber costs about the same as a regular taxi did before uber arrived. But taxis drivers made and do make more than uber drivers. That sounds like a middle man got in and lowered wages. The same work, less money for workers, more for middle men? That is exploitation.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > It may have gone up 50% in the past ten years, but it languished for decades before that. I appreciate your attempt to find some kind of reply, but, locally, minimum wage is up 1,567% since the first year it was in effect. Inflation is up only 810% over the same period. That's a substantial real gain. > Second - does minimum wage apply to gig workers in your location? As of a couple of months ago, yes. But, really, was anyone turning on their car for less than minimum wage before? You'd be losing money hand over fist doing that. There is no purpose in driving for Uber if you are losing money. Doing nothing at all is the clear winner in that scenario. > Because in most places they have successfully classified their employees as “contractors”. Which is fair. It's clearly a contractor position by every measure, and remains a contractor position here even with the recent laws surrounding those contracted services. As you can see, contractor doesn't have to mean a free-for-all. Contractors can be given worker rights too. > But taxis drivers made and do make more than uber drivers. That sounds like a middle man got in and lowered wages. Taxis, in many jurisdictions, have historically held a monopoly/oligopoly. That sounds more like new competition has increased competitiveness, which doesn't come as any surprise. A lowered price isn't the same as exploitation, though.
    - 4y ago
aperson_hello 4y ago
Minimum wage arguments are a red herring in this economy. No one except the young, disabled, and felons are getting paid minimum wage now. Looking at prevailing "low skill" wages, they more than doubled for starting positions in my area since 2010. From something like $8 in 2010 to something like $16-17 today.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Do the young, disabled, and felons deserve to suffer so you can get a coffee for 50c cheaper? And you forgot immigrants, the other large group working minimum wage jobs.
  - aperson_hello 4y ago
    Good point re: immigrants! I was making an inflation/wages argument, not a value-based one here. The prevailing minimum wage (for 95% of "low skill" jobs) is significantly different than federal minimum wages.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      I think my point was actually a little off as well. Framing it as someone suffering for your cheap goods. Some things ARE like that. Fast fashion's $6 t-shirts come to mind. But service industry stuff like your cup of coffee - it's usually more like: does someone have to suffer so that you can get your cup of coffee and someone can become VERY rich off it.
- moe091 4y ago
  that's just not true. Maybe in some areas, definitely not in others. Do you actually know a lot of people working at CVS or dollar stores or supermarkets, etc? Wawa is paying $15 an hour and every single other place in my area is significantly below that