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So because you have bad experience with taxis you feel entitled to exploit unprivileged workers instead? I don't doubt that taxis can be problematic in many pl

So because you have bad experience with taxis you feel entitled to exploit unprivileged workers instead? I don't doubt that taxis can be problematic in many places. Typically they reflect the social conditions of where they operate. Inequality, poor education, corruption in general mean that taxis in such location are not a good experience. And then highly paid people like many HN readers are just not willing to do the math: A taxi driver (or Uber driver) will not be able to drive all working day long. They have to wait for new passengers a significant part of their working time. So expect that when you use them you need to pay at least twice the rate for a normal employee. Deprecation and maintenace for a car is not cheap. And again the customer also needs to pay it for the time the vehicle is not moving, not just for the time they are travelling. The latter is even worse for Uber. Private cars don't have several drivers. Traditional taxis have (at least in this country), just to compensate for big part of fixed costs. Of course Uber externalizes those costs to their drivers.

rayiner 4y ago
> So because you have bad experience with taxis you feel entitled to exploit unprivileged workers instead? These are the same Dick Cheney acolytes saying “we need illegal immigration or else strawberries will cost too much.”
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  American strawberry farms would not exist without illegal immigration, that’s just a fact. No one would buy domestic strawberries picked by someone making an American wage when the imported strawberries cost half as much.
  - usr1106 4y ago
    So the American government / society works according the same principles as Uber does. Let's take the earnings ourselves by exploiting others in weak positions. They can stand for the costs and the risks.
  - usr1106 4y ago
    A more civilized way of solving the problem is by customs. Foreign products don't have unfair advantages and the country can use the collected money to produce public services.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    If growing strawberries is important to us, we could just apply heavy tariffs on imported strawberries.
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      Raising food prices is a non starter politically.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Somehow Western European countries manage to have domestic workers grow their food at decent wages, even if it means higher food prices. Why can’t we?
        usr1106 4y ago
        > domestic workers That's a bit of a stretch. Finnish agriculture (which is rather small) has not been able to live without Ukrainian and Vietnamese workers for several years. But there are legal frameworks to get them the required permits. It's not free of problems, all kind of exploitation happens. But then the rules will be tightened again. I think it's the same over most of Western Europe, with domestic workers alone farming could stop.
pimterry 4y ago
> And then highly paid people like many HN are just not willing to do the math: A taxi driver (or Uber driver) will not be able to drive all working day long. They have to wait for new passengers a significant part of their working time. This dynamic changes significantly though when your have app-mediated taxi interactions, instead of waving down a taxi in the street. Taxi drivers end up drastically more efficiently allocating their time, since they don't have to drive around hoping for customers to miraculously appear - instead they just drive directly to the closest customer every time. They can also manage their time to work only when & where there is demand for their services in the moment, instead of driving around the wrong area looking for non-existent customers. You'd also expect that by providing a more convenient/cheaper/better service, this would create more demand for taxis in turn, which makes it easier to find passengers, and so driver time can be even better utilized. None of that requires either Uber specifically or a ruthless gig-worker model - any other app-based taxi service would provide the same benefits - but I think it does make a clear argument for why app-powered taxis in general should be able to bring taxi prices down and provide a better customer experience, without necessarily destroying taxi driver's livelihoods.
- usr1106 4y ago
  > instead of waving down a taxi in the street. That has never existed in any of the 3 countries I have lived in. Taxis were always ordered by phone. At least since the 1960s drivers were offered trips via radio by the taxi switchboard, in 2000s the available trips appeared on a screen on the dashboard. Well, it might depend also on the density, but at least outside of massive city centers some kind of booking has always been required. > None of that requires either Uber specifically or a ruthless gig-worker model Exactly. > a clear argument for why app-powered taxis in general should be able to bring taxi prices down We are on HN, so I assume few would resist to use IT to optimize a problem. However, my expectations of how much such systems really save costs in the end would be rather moderate. Don't underestimate human optimization if experienced drivers pick their rides from a list. As mentioned, technology for that has existed since the 1960s. Does Uber really offer anything better for the driver?

rayiner 4y ago

> So because you have bad experience with taxis you feel entitled to exploit unprivileged workers instead? These are the same Dick Cheney acolytes saying “we need illegal immigration or else strawberries will cost too much.”

colinmhayes 4y ago
American strawberry farms would not exist without illegal immigration, that’s just a fact. No one would buy domestic strawberries picked by someone making an American wage when the imported strawberries cost half as much.
- usr1106 4y ago
  So the American government / society works according the same principles as Uber does. Let's take the earnings ourselves by exploiting others in weak positions. They can stand for the costs and the risks.
- usr1106 4y ago
  A more civilized way of solving the problem is by customs. Foreign products don't have unfair advantages and the country can use the collected money to produce public services.
- rayiner 4y ago
  If growing strawberries is important to us, we could just apply heavy tariffs on imported strawberries.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Raising food prices is a non starter politically.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Somehow Western European countries manage to have domestic workers grow their food at decent wages, even if it means higher food prices. Why can’t we?
      - usr1106 4y ago
        > domestic workers That's a bit of a stretch. Finnish agriculture (which is rather small) has not been able to live without Ukrainian and Vietnamese workers for several years. But there are legal frameworks to get them the required permits. It's not free of problems, all kind of exploitation happens. But then the rules will be tightened again. I think it's the same over most of Western Europe, with domestic workers alone farming could stop.

pimterry 4y ago

> And then highly paid people like many HN are just not willing to do the math: A taxi driver (or Uber driver) will not be able to drive all working day long. They have to wait for new passengers a significant part of their working time. This dynamic changes significantly though when your have app-mediated taxi interactions, instead of waving down a taxi in the street. Taxi drivers end up drastically more efficiently allocating their time, since they don't have to drive around hoping for customers to miraculously appear - instead they just drive directly to the closest customer every time. They can also manage their time to work only when & where there is demand for their services in the moment, instead of driving around the wrong area looking for non-existent customers. You'd also expect that by providing a more convenient/cheaper/better service, this would create more demand for taxis in turn, which makes it easier to find passengers, and so driver time can be even better utilized. None of that requires either Uber specifically or a ruthless gig-worker model - any other app-based taxi service would provide the same benefits - but I think it does make a clear argument for why app-powered taxis in general should be able to bring taxi prices down and provide a better customer experience, without necessarily destroying taxi driver's livelihoods.

usr1106 4y ago
> instead of waving down a taxi in the street. That has never existed in any of the 3 countries I have lived in. Taxis were always ordered by phone. At least since the 1960s drivers were offered trips via radio by the taxi switchboard, in 2000s the available trips appeared on a screen on the dashboard. Well, it might depend also on the density, but at least outside of massive city centers some kind of booking has always been required. > None of that requires either Uber specifically or a ruthless gig-worker model Exactly. > a clear argument for why app-powered taxis in general should be able to bring taxi prices down We are on HN, so I assume few would resist to use IT to optimize a problem. However, my expectations of how much such systems really save costs in the end would be rather moderate. Don't underestimate human optimization if experienced drivers pick their rides from a list. As mentioned, technology for that has existed since the 1960s. Does Uber really offer anything better for the driver?