4 ms·

I do not want to ever use Microsoft software, why do I need a Microsoft certified key to use my own hardware? Big question is how do Microsoft get away with th

I do not want to ever use Microsoft software, why do I need a Microsoft certified key to use my own hardware? Big question is how do Microsoft get away with this bullying of hardware manufactures, probably the fear of losing business. What can we do to stop this?

onli 4y ago
The moment systems like TPM and secureboot were added it stopped being our hardware. We said as much back then, sabotage like described here show that analysis was right. There is nothing that can be done as long as there is a processor duopoly that follows these ms requirements.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  What's the problem with TPMs? Do you mean the Intel ME/AMD PSP or is there an anti hardware key movement out there that I don't know about?
  - cesarb 4y ago
    AFAIK, the fears with TPM are mostly about remote attestation. That is, a remote system could certify that you are running Windows (and not something else like Linux) on the physical hardware (and not on a VM) before allowing access to some resource; and that "some resource" could in the future even include basic things like Internet access.
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      That's a pretty terrible system, but I'm more afraid of the remote end of the system than the local one to be honest. We already have DRM and Intel providing features like SGX isn't the problem; the external parties choosing to restrict user freedom are. I don't think remote hardware attestation will be implemented anywhere but in enterprise environments where it makes sense to do so. Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet.
      - Avamander 4y ago
        > Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet. It's getting harder by the year. I think it has strangled a lot of the Android ROM and modding community really, how your apps can randomly stop working after an update or two or that you can't watch high-quality content.
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        I think the Android ROM scene is starting to die out in general. Stuff not working outside official ROMs/on rooted devices has always been a problem, especially with DRM. People want the freedom to do what they want with their hardware and DRM people want people to do only what they allow with their hardware, the two parties will always be at odds. Huge parts of the ROM scene were on Google Plus (yes, people actually used that) rather than on XDA and similar, which didn't help. Google also tends to hire people who do impressive modifications for Android ROMs like the person who wrote magisk, making the custom ROM scene shrink some more. I remember the ROM scene being so much more active before the corruption and death of Cyanogenmod!
      - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
        > Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet. You do not need to guarantee that it can't be bypassed. You just need to ensure that it is annoying for the average advanced user to bypass it and that's it -- the damage is done. And for example I have had to change banks already, and I consider myself a pretty advanced user...
jeroenhd 4y ago
You can buy the Linux editions of your hardware, at least for laptops, to show that there's a real need for Linux support out there, however small it may be in practice. Or you can buy System76 or similar hardware to guarantee actual Linux compatibility rather than the manufacturer saying "it boots so let's ship it".
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  If I had to pay 2x the retail price for Linux compatible hardware, I'd have never gotten into Linux as a teenager with no money and no access to special hardware.
  - cesarb 4y ago
    Even 1x the retail price is too much. Like many (perhaps most) people here, I got into Linux as a teenager by dual-booting on hardware I (or rather my parents) already owned. If I had to pay for extra hardware just to try Linux, I would probably still be using MS-DOS and Windows.
  - trelane 4y ago
    "2x?" Citation, please
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      What cesarb said already, rings true to me: even if these devices were available at a price comparable to retail, no way in hell I would buy a special "Linux phone/laptop" in addition to my regular one. I just wouldn't have had the financial resources to explore the world of "open" things. To address your proper comment, any amount of time spent on window-shopping any "open hardware by design" project pricing pages will show exorbitant amounts vs comparable spec consumer/mainstream hardware. Examples: * Talos Workstation, any Librem product, MNT Reform: self-explanatory. Absolutely mad price range for someone who is not sure whether they should buy one/need one, even for someone already in full-time employment in the IT field. If that's what you need or want, and you're sure you both need it and can afford it? Great. But not accessible to hobbyists. * the Framework laptop/System76: the most basic configurations are around $1k/£1k. I don't think it's likely I would be able to obtain a cheaper one second-hand locally. I am not going to make a survey of all Linux/open laptop vendors out there who sell worldwide (or at least, US and Europe), but I assume it's similar. If you can point to reasonably priced laptops from 2 different vendors or more, with specs suitable to using the laptop as a modern-day daily driver, I will retract this point. * OpenPandora/DragonBox Pyra: I was extremely interested in this one, but bloody hell, spending 300-500EUR on a piece of hardware that will basically only ever play source ports of games and emulators? I knew straight away that I would only ever lick this thing through the virtual shopfront window, because for what you got, that price range was extremely hard to justify. This was before ARM gaming was a thing in any way. * OpenMoko: as far as I know, the only attempt at an open hardware smartphone (that got something off the ground) until the PinePhone came along. Reading about it at the time, I recognised that its hardware is outdated, and that the software is irredeemable to anyone not willing to put blood, sweat and tears into it. Meanwhile, I could've picked up a CyanogenMod Android phone and had 80-90% of the benefit, for about the same price, and comparable or much better specs. I don't blame anyone on the list above for the prices, and I don't think their products are crap. All I'm saying is that for someone on a budget, getting one of those is unviable. Either it's too expensive outright, or when it isn't, the result is not usable as a daily driver because you would give up basic features that you actually need. And when I mean basic, I mean "it cannot use school/work/bank/government/messaging apps made for the current duopoly in this device category", not "uses an older version of USB".
pjmlp 4y ago
Instead of giving money to Apple or Microsoft, you give it to Linux OEMs.

onli 4y ago

The moment systems like TPM and secureboot were added it stopped being our hardware. We said as much back then, sabotage like described here show that analysis was right. There is nothing that can be done as long as there is a processor duopoly that follows these ms requirements.

jeroenhd 4y ago
What's the problem with TPMs? Do you mean the Intel ME/AMD PSP or is there an anti hardware key movement out there that I don't know about?
- cesarb 4y ago
  AFAIK, the fears with TPM are mostly about remote attestation. That is, a remote system could certify that you are running Windows (and not something else like Linux) on the physical hardware (and not on a VM) before allowing access to some resource; and that "some resource" could in the future even include basic things like Internet access.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    That's a pretty terrible system, but I'm more afraid of the remote end of the system than the local one to be honest. We already have DRM and Intel providing features like SGX isn't the problem; the external parties choosing to restrict user freedom are. I don't think remote hardware attestation will be implemented anywhere but in enterprise environments where it makes sense to do so. Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet.
    - Avamander 4y ago
      > Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet. It's getting harder by the year. I think it has strangled a lot of the Android ROM and modding community really, how your apps can randomly stop working after an update or two or that you can't watch high-quality content.
      - jeroenhd 4y ago
        I think the Android ROM scene is starting to die out in general. Stuff not working outside official ROMs/on rooted devices has always been a problem, especially with DRM. People want the freedom to do what they want with their hardware and DRM people want people to do only what they allow with their hardware, the two parties will always be at odds. Huge parts of the ROM scene were on Google Plus (yes, people actually used that) rather than on XDA and similar, which didn't help. Google also tends to hire people who do impressive modifications for Android ROMs like the person who wrote magisk, making the custom ROM scene shrink some more. I remember the ROM scene being so much more active before the corruption and death of Cyanogenmod!
    - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
      > Even on Android we see remote attestation being bypassed quite easily in most apps. Some banks and payment providers are harder to trick, but I don't think there's a version of the system that hasn't been bypassed yet. You do not need to guarantee that it can't be bypassed. You just need to ensure that it is annoying for the average advanced user to bypass it and that's it -- the damage is done. And for example I have had to change banks already, and I consider myself a pretty advanced user...

jeroenhd 4y ago

You can buy the Linux editions of your hardware, at least for laptops, to show that there's a real need for Linux support out there, however small it may be in practice. Or you can buy System76 or similar hardware to guarantee actual Linux compatibility rather than the manufacturer saying "it boots so let's ship it".

selfhoster11 4y ago
If I had to pay 2x the retail price for Linux compatible hardware, I'd have never gotten into Linux as a teenager with no money and no access to special hardware.
- cesarb 4y ago
  Even 1x the retail price is too much. Like many (perhaps most) people here, I got into Linux as a teenager by dual-booting on hardware I (or rather my parents) already owned. If I had to pay for extra hardware just to try Linux, I would probably still be using MS-DOS and Windows.
- trelane 4y ago
  "2x?" Citation, please
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    What cesarb said already, rings true to me: even if these devices were available at a price comparable to retail, no way in hell I would buy a special "Linux phone/laptop" in addition to my regular one. I just wouldn't have had the financial resources to explore the world of "open" things. To address your proper comment, any amount of time spent on window-shopping any "open hardware by design" project pricing pages will show exorbitant amounts vs comparable spec consumer/mainstream hardware. Examples: * Talos Workstation, any Librem product, MNT Reform: self-explanatory. Absolutely mad price range for someone who is not sure whether they should buy one/need one, even for someone already in full-time employment in the IT field. If that's what you need or want, and you're sure you both need it and can afford it? Great. But not accessible to hobbyists. * the Framework laptop/System76: the most basic configurations are around $1k/£1k. I don't think it's likely I would be able to obtain a cheaper one second-hand locally. I am not going to make a survey of all Linux/open laptop vendors out there who sell worldwide (or at least, US and Europe), but I assume it's similar. If you can point to reasonably priced laptops from 2 different vendors or more, with specs suitable to using the laptop as a modern-day daily driver, I will retract this point. * OpenPandora/DragonBox Pyra: I was extremely interested in this one, but bloody hell, spending 300-500EUR on a piece of hardware that will basically only ever play source ports of games and emulators? I knew straight away that I would only ever lick this thing through the virtual shopfront window, because for what you got, that price range was extremely hard to justify. This was before ARM gaming was a thing in any way. * OpenMoko: as far as I know, the only attempt at an open hardware smartphone (that got something off the ground) until the PinePhone came along. Reading about it at the time, I recognised that its hardware is outdated, and that the software is irredeemable to anyone not willing to put blood, sweat and tears into it. Meanwhile, I could've picked up a CyanogenMod Android phone and had 80-90% of the benefit, for about the same price, and comparable or much better specs. I don't blame anyone on the list above for the prices, and I don't think their products are crap. All I'm saying is that for someone on a budget, getting one of those is unviable. Either it's too expensive outright, or when it isn't, the result is not usable as a daily driver because you would give up basic features that you actually need. And when I mean basic, I mean "it cannot use school/work/bank/government/messaging apps made for the current duopoly in this device category", not "uses an older version of USB".

pjmlp 4y ago

Instead of giving money to Apple or Microsoft, you give it to Linux OEMs.