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As tech workers we're in a great position to move the needle a bit more towards a cooperative/worker owned model for our livelihoods and careers. That would add

As tech workers we're in a great position to move the needle a bit more towards a cooperative/worker owned model for our livelihoods and careers. That would address a lot of the problems here around the impersonality of it all, having to lose meaningful relationships, obscurity around business decisions, etc.

ardit33 4y ago
It doesn't work, for the simple fact as not everyone works the same. As the saying is, in most teams 20% of the people do 80% of the work and move the team forward, while the rest do fill the gaps, and are more of helper, yet want the same comp. I have seen this happening over and over.
- BarryMilo 4y ago
  You can't just say "it doesn't work" when hundreds if not thousands of people are using this model successfully. Your 80/20 speaks to remuneration, which can be negotiated and does not have to be equal, especially when equality isn't fair.
  - ardit33 4y ago
    Communism and socialism failed... in 52 countries. Yes, there are exceptions, on small scale. (Co-ops, and small partnerships). But in large scale, it doesn't work. Law Firms are one example where it could work, but even there you have Partners and Associates. And even Partners have levels (Equity Partners, Junior Partners, Full Partners... etc).
    - bushbaba 4y ago
      Communism can work if you can kick out bad actors. That’s why kibbutzim have historically worked. But for any sufficiently large system that’s not possible, which is why it failed to govern countries.
      - TimPC 4y ago
        Communism where disabled people are consider “bad actors” who “don’t contribute” loses a lot of its appeal. If you can kick people out seemingly arbitrarily then it’s not a social safety net.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        I think by "bad actors" they meant psychopaths and malignant narcissists who would aim to take over the system for their own gain. People like Stalin. The problem at scale is figuring out who these people are, and keeping them out of exactly that system. Unfortunately even the American system of checks and balances can't really keep psychopaths out of high office, so it's an unsolved problem of how to deal with this.
    - bruce511 4y ago
      Communism and socialism are two very different things. I'm not sure most Americans appreciate how different the are, and tend to conflate the two. Communism itself has many flavors, and while soviet communism failed (arguably because it was just tsarism with a different tsar), Chinese communism is still very much a working model and a very successful one (for some definitions of success.) Democratic socialism is also well represented today, with some stand-out performers in Europe. As with all social systems, capitalism included, there are pros and cons, haves and have-nots. Some systems promote equality, some promote huge winners and losers. Naturally US businesses tend to model the national system (the only thing that matters is money) which typically makes them poor places to work. But companies don't have to follow the national model - there are plenty of exploitive companies in Europe, and more than a few humane companies in the US.
      - mutatio 4y ago
        The Chinese economic model is very much capitalist, so yes, capitalism is very much a working model. During the Cultural Revolution, China tried to become "more communist" economically, with predictably bad outcomes.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        Funny how when China is being demonized it's "Communist China", but when China is doing something well its "Capitalist China".
    - kingboss 4y ago
      What socialism? What communism? We were talking about having some sort of protection for the workers. What is it with Americans that they think that if they do anything to make people's lives easier next thing you know you're Soviet Russia?
diob 4y ago
I did this, best decision of my career. We negotiate as a team now!
missedthecue 4y ago
How does a cooperative raise money without being shareholder owned? Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
- apexalpha 4y ago
  You give out bonds or certificates to external parties.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Coops can still take external investment.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    So at that point it's literally just a startup? Employees get some equity but most the shares are sold to pay salaries and AWS bills.
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      The legal and regulatory structures tend to be significantly different in ways that matter.
eecc 4y ago
Something like the Swedish coop Crisp? https://dna.crisp.se/docs/index.html https://dna.crisp.se/docs/index.html
lmm 4y ago
Just unionizing can really move the needle on getting companies to eliminate some of the casual cruelty. Unfortunately approximately everyone on HN is a temporarily embarrassed 10xer who thus feels no solidarity with their fellows.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  Or just productive. One of my jobs is union. You can get away with not committing anything for weeks there.
  - kqr 4y ago
    Are you familiar with the term "anecdotal evidence"? Your comment is such a good example of it that I almost think it was intentional.
    - alldayeveryday 4y ago
      Does this imply that his anecdote is fake? Are there circumstances that you permit people to share anecdotes, and if so what are those circumstances?
  - mplewis 4y ago
    The security and stability that a union provides are real, unlike your “lazy union” boogeyman. They result in better working conditions and better products for customers.
- diob 4y ago
  Very much agree. That and they don't realize they're leaving money / benefits on the table due to pride.
pabs3 4y ago
Igalia are a good example of a tech worker cooperative. They work on open source, mostly browser engines: https://www.igalia.com/ https://www.igalia.com/ Other examples: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918
refurb 4y ago
Feel free to create your own worker cooperative. In the mean time I’m happy to get signing bonuses, big equity grants and a great base salary. I’m not looking for community at work, I’m looking for money.

ardit33 4y ago

It doesn't work, for the simple fact as not everyone works the same. As the saying is, in most teams 20% of the people do 80% of the work and move the team forward, while the rest do fill the gaps, and are more of helper, yet want the same comp. I have seen this happening over and over.

BarryMilo 4y ago
You can't just say "it doesn't work" when hundreds if not thousands of people are using this model successfully. Your 80/20 speaks to remuneration, which can be negotiated and does not have to be equal, especially when equality isn't fair.
- ardit33 4y ago
  Communism and socialism failed... in 52 countries. Yes, there are exceptions, on small scale. (Co-ops, and small partnerships). But in large scale, it doesn't work. Law Firms are one example where it could work, but even there you have Partners and Associates. And even Partners have levels (Equity Partners, Junior Partners, Full Partners... etc).
  - bushbaba 4y ago
    Communism can work if you can kick out bad actors. That’s why kibbutzim have historically worked. But for any sufficiently large system that’s not possible, which is why it failed to govern countries.
    - TimPC 4y ago
      Communism where disabled people are consider “bad actors” who “don’t contribute” loses a lot of its appeal. If you can kick people out seemingly arbitrarily then it’s not a social safety net.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        I think by "bad actors" they meant psychopaths and malignant narcissists who would aim to take over the system for their own gain. People like Stalin. The problem at scale is figuring out who these people are, and keeping them out of exactly that system. Unfortunately even the American system of checks and balances can't really keep psychopaths out of high office, so it's an unsolved problem of how to deal with this.
  - bruce511 4y ago
    Communism and socialism are two very different things. I'm not sure most Americans appreciate how different the are, and tend to conflate the two. Communism itself has many flavors, and while soviet communism failed (arguably because it was just tsarism with a different tsar), Chinese communism is still very much a working model and a very successful one (for some definitions of success.) Democratic socialism is also well represented today, with some stand-out performers in Europe. As with all social systems, capitalism included, there are pros and cons, haves and have-nots. Some systems promote equality, some promote huge winners and losers. Naturally US businesses tend to model the national system (the only thing that matters is money) which typically makes them poor places to work. But companies don't have to follow the national model - there are plenty of exploitive companies in Europe, and more than a few humane companies in the US.
    - mutatio 4y ago
      The Chinese economic model is very much capitalist, so yes, capitalism is very much a working model. During the Cultural Revolution, China tried to become "more communist" economically, with predictably bad outcomes.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        Funny how when China is being demonized it's "Communist China", but when China is doing something well its "Capitalist China".
  - kingboss 4y ago
    What socialism? What communism? We were talking about having some sort of protection for the workers. What is it with Americans that they think that if they do anything to make people's lives easier next thing you know you're Soviet Russia?

diob 4y ago

I did this, best decision of my career. We negotiate as a team now!

missedthecue 4y ago

How does a cooperative raise money without being shareholder owned? Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.

apexalpha 4y ago
You give out bonds or certificates to external parties.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
Coops can still take external investment.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  So at that point it's literally just a startup? Employees get some equity but most the shares are sold to pay salaries and AWS bills.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    The legal and regulatory structures tend to be significantly different in ways that matter.

eecc 4y ago

Something like the Swedish coop Crisp? https://dna.crisp.se/docs/index.html https://dna.crisp.se/docs/index.html

lmm 4y ago

Just unionizing can really move the needle on getting companies to eliminate some of the casual cruelty. Unfortunately approximately everyone on HN is a temporarily embarrassed 10xer who thus feels no solidarity with their fellows.

throwawaysleep 4y ago
Or just productive. One of my jobs is union. You can get away with not committing anything for weeks there.
- kqr 4y ago
  Are you familiar with the term "anecdotal evidence"? Your comment is such a good example of it that I almost think it was intentional.
  - alldayeveryday 4y ago
    Does this imply that his anecdote is fake? Are there circumstances that you permit people to share anecdotes, and if so what are those circumstances?
- mplewis 4y ago
  The security and stability that a union provides are real, unlike your “lazy union” boogeyman. They result in better working conditions and better products for customers.
diob 4y ago
Very much agree. That and they don't realize they're leaving money / benefits on the table due to pride.

pabs3 4y ago

Igalia are a good example of a tech worker cooperative. They work on open source, mostly browser engines: https://www.igalia.com/ https://www.igalia.com/ Other examples: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918

refurb 4y ago

Feel free to create your own worker cooperative. In the mean time I’m happy to get signing bonuses, big equity grants and a great base salary. I’m not looking for community at work, I’m looking for money.