4 ms·

Right. So these Mac Pros are releasing trace amounts of benzene, which may cause cancer or death in high doses. Nothing like a little sensationalism early in th

Right. So these Mac Pros are releasing trace amounts of benzene, which may cause cancer or death in high doses. Nothing like a little sensationalism early in the morning.

davidw 18y ago
It causes cancer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects That said, the article is still pretty sensationalistic.
- palish 18y ago
  That's true, but irrelevant. If I may borrow Mr. Jaynes' words: For example, to tell us that a sugar substitute is dangerous in doses a thousand times greater than would ever be encountered in practice, is hardly an argument against using the substitute; indeed, the fact that it is necessary to go to kilodoses in order to detect any ill effects at all, is rather conclusive evidence, not of the danger, but of the safety, of a tested substance. A similar overdose of sugar would be far more dangerous, leading not to barely detectable harmful effects, but to sure, immediate death by diabetic coma; yet nobody has proposed to ban the use of sugar in food." ( source: http://www-biba.inrialpes.fr/Jaynes/prob.html http://www-biba.inrialpes.fr/Jaynes/prob.html ) The key fact to remember is that it is the amount of Benzene that matters, not just that it is present.
  - davidw 18y ago
    > irrelevant It's not known if it's relevant or not. It might be, it might not. Without having further information, it's simply impossible to say.
    - palish 18y ago
      Why is it not known? It seems like an experiment should have already been done. For example, one could arrange an experiment with two groups of rats. The active group R would be administered very low doses of Benzene, whereas the control group C would not. Then, both groups would be studied over a sufficient period of time. If rats from R develop cancer and rats from C don't, then it is known that Benzene does cause cancer at low doses. Otherwise, if the experiment is repeated a sufficient number of times, the chance that Benzene causes cancer in low doses is statistically irrelevant. Our points are the same: it is not generally known whether cancer can actually be caused by low doses of Benzene, so it is detrimental to freak over sensationalist articles like this one. Also, it is especially distasteful to frighten people by claiming that there is some measure of truth ("science") in these inherently unscientific claims.
      - davidw 18y ago
        What is unknown is what the Mac computers are giving off, if anything, and in what quantities. Without that, it's impossible to even start talking about benzene.
        palish 18y ago
        I don't understand. From the article: According to Liberation.fr (english translation), as reported on ZDNet, the odor being emitted from Mac Pros manufactured before 2008 includes a number of chemicals including Benzene, a known carcinogen that in high doses is lethal. So we're saying the same thing... I think? If the report is unconfirmed, then this article is extremely objectionable because the implication is that Mac Pros kill people (which would rightfully freak people out), but there is no supporting evidence. So therefore, the story might as well have been completely made up.
        davidw 18y ago
        Like I said, it's a sensationalist article. Without knowing the composition and quantities involved, it's impossible to say anything with certainty.
        palish 18y ago
        Correct, but it's impossible to say anything with absolute certainty. However, we can judge the probabilities based on our previous experiences. So my assertions are: - There are claims that Mac Pros emit an odor that contains Benzene. - It's unlikely that the amount of Benzene is enough to be statistically dangerous, or even the source of the odor itself. - Therefore, this article is pointless.
  - silentbicycle 18y ago
    Agreed, hence my posting links to MSDSs below: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=320901 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=320901 And here's the MSDS for benzene: http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Benzene-9927339 http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Benzene-9927339
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

Right. So these Mac Pros are releasing trace amounts of benzene, which may cause cancer or death in high doses. Nothing like a little sensationalism early in the morning.

davidw 18y ago

It causes cancer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects That said, the article is still pretty sensationalistic.

palish 18y ago
That's true, but irrelevant. If I may borrow Mr. Jaynes' words: For example, to tell us that a sugar substitute is dangerous in doses a thousand times greater than would ever be encountered in practice, is hardly an argument against using the substitute; indeed, the fact that it is necessary to go to kilodoses in order to detect any ill effects at all, is rather conclusive evidence, not of the danger, but of the safety, of a tested substance. A similar overdose of sugar would be far more dangerous, leading not to barely detectable harmful effects, but to sure, immediate death by diabetic coma; yet nobody has proposed to ban the use of sugar in food." ( source: http://www-biba.inrialpes.fr/Jaynes/prob.html http://www-biba.inrialpes.fr/Jaynes/prob.html ) The key fact to remember is that it is the amount of Benzene that matters, not just that it is present.
- davidw 18y ago
  > irrelevant It's not known if it's relevant or not. It might be, it might not. Without having further information, it's simply impossible to say.
  - palish 18y ago
    Why is it not known? It seems like an experiment should have already been done. For example, one could arrange an experiment with two groups of rats. The active group R would be administered very low doses of Benzene, whereas the control group C would not. Then, both groups would be studied over a sufficient period of time. If rats from R develop cancer and rats from C don't, then it is known that Benzene does cause cancer at low doses. Otherwise, if the experiment is repeated a sufficient number of times, the chance that Benzene causes cancer in low doses is statistically irrelevant. Our points are the same: it is not generally known whether cancer can actually be caused by low doses of Benzene, so it is detrimental to freak over sensationalist articles like this one. Also, it is especially distasteful to frighten people by claiming that there is some measure of truth ("science") in these inherently unscientific claims.
    - davidw 18y ago
      What is unknown is what the Mac computers are giving off, if anything, and in what quantities. Without that, it's impossible to even start talking about benzene.
      - palish 18y ago
        I don't understand. From the article: According to Liberation.fr (english translation), as reported on ZDNet, the odor being emitted from Mac Pros manufactured before 2008 includes a number of chemicals including Benzene, a known carcinogen that in high doses is lethal. So we're saying the same thing... I think? If the report is unconfirmed, then this article is extremely objectionable because the implication is that Mac Pros kill people (which would rightfully freak people out), but there is no supporting evidence. So therefore, the story might as well have been completely made up.
        davidw 18y ago
        Like I said, it's a sensationalist article. Without knowing the composition and quantities involved, it's impossible to say anything with certainty.
        palish 18y ago
        Correct, but it's impossible to say anything with absolute certainty. However, we can judge the probabilities based on our previous experiences. So my assertions are: - There are claims that Mac Pros emit an odor that contains Benzene. - It's unlikely that the amount of Benzene is enough to be statistically dangerous, or even the source of the odor itself. - Therefore, this article is pointless.
- silentbicycle 18y ago
  Agreed, hence my posting links to MSDSs below: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=320901 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=320901 And here's the MSDS for benzene: http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Benzene-9927339 http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Benzene-9927339

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]