5 ms·

Wage dilution is an issue. It's the working and middle classes that are most harmed by immigration. Those who are in the position to not have their wages threa

Wage dilution is an issue. It's the working and middle classes that are most harmed by immigration. Those who are in the position to not have their wages threatened by mass immigration policies are free to reap the rewards of cheap labor, but for those who are in the position of being outcompeted by incoming labor, immigration is a drawback not an asset. Naturally, policymakers are in the former category, and as such, happen to quite like mass immigration.

sangnoir 4y ago
> It's the working and middle classes that are most harmed by immigration. Didn't farmers complain that British (working class?)citizens[1] weren't up for picking fruits after East Europeans hit the Brexit? The same working & middle class rely on cheap fruits, so it's not a simple equation where fewer immigrants = better jobs. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-61568286 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-61568286
- thrown_22 4y ago
  I'm not sure how to respond without being glib, but there's more to life than fruit. Safe working conditions are worth 5 pound strawberries.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Sure - there's more to life than fruit, massages, receiving trucked goods, and being attended to by health techs - but add it all up and you're missing quite a huge chunk of "life", IMO.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      If a system depends on disposable workers to provide those things than it's not a system we should be supporting. We need to figure out how to provide a wage large enough to provide for everyone, not just the lucky few who have an army of slaves to meet their needs. Currently we don't and we are stealing the human capital of the second world to support our failing countries.
      - random314 4y ago
        The strawman is now a strawarmy!
  - hnhg 4y ago
    Why do you assume they're unsafe? That's not in the article. It appears you've created a strawman.
- wewxjfq 4y ago
  Or you could try to stop the race to the bottom and pay the working class more so they can afford strawberries that aren't picked by wage slaves.
- Gollapalli 4y ago
  There's a difference between a complaint and a reality. British working class citizens likely wouldn't wish to pick fruits, at the wages that British farmers wish to pay them. Actually, that's sort of the point. British working class labour being undercut by foreign labour.
  - emsixteen 4y ago
    "Undercut"? You're getting there.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > Actually, that's sort of the point. British working class labour being undercut by foreign labour. Sure, that may work in a purely hypothetical construct with rational economic agents, no second-order effects, farmers that are OK with going out of business, no political pandering, a the Conservative government that cares about labor (the class) and spherical cows. Why are the anti-immigration politicians, now that they have "taken back control" - still keeping the immigration pipeline running? Just with fewer EU immigrants. Blaming foreign laborers for systemic problems is a lazy cop-out: that is the bloc with the least say.
closeparen 4y ago
No, it's not, this is called the lump of labor fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
- olivermarks 4y ago
  Tragedy of the commons (or in this case mass immigration to the 'commons') https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/tragedy-of-the-commons-impact-on-sustainability-issues https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/tragedy-of-the-commons-impa... example 5
  - closeparen 4y ago
    Wages do not work like groundwater. There is no fixed exogenous workload or pool of national income such that fewer people get bigger shares. This was cutting edge thinking at the time of the Industrial Revolution but it turned out to be totally wrong. Obviously, or standards of living in Western countries today would be much worse than in Malthusianism's heyday, given our now much higher populations.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      Disagree. UK socialists last century when the country was still a manufacturing powerhouse were clear about the concept of a nation state with nationalized health, energy, travel etc, union membership and fair taxation for A FINITE NUMBER OF CITIZENS. Fraternal relationships with similar nation states (all singing the nationale together) was arguably one of the reasons for the creation of the common market (which of course mushroomed over time into the huge undemocratic bureaucratic monster it now is). Naturally those benefits (literally in some cases) were very attractive to people like Mo Farah's family from afar decades ago and the UK and Europe were empathetic to allowing some immigration. The tragedy of the commons is epitomized by globalization, the vast offshore empire that now controls the planet. The globalists want compliant, overpopulated workforces with no negotiating skills in all countries and thus encouraging borderless society. The result is mediocre wages, large amounts of trafficking of in some cases literally slave labour and few opportunities for what used to be termed the working classes. These are huge global problems that are currently spinning out of control due to the globalists also controlling the central banks which have enabled finacialization of everything and now ferocious inflation
nly 4y ago
Real UK wages are stagnant because the UK has a desperately unproductive economy. Growth in disposable household income has lagged Europe massively for decades. We also have the highest tax burden as a % of GDP in 70 years. House prices are the highest relative to income than they have ever been. We're a country circling the drain. Blaming immigration and the EU in political discourse just suits the political agenda of our clueless, ambivalent politicians who haven't got the vision or balls to radically change anything for the better. Instead they'll just pick over what benefits they will cut and what taxes they will cut/increase and run in circles.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  Your comment makes me think of this essay by Branko Milanovic Particularly this line: Xi sees the break-up of the Soviet Union and the end of the CPSU as the result of “ideological nihilism”: the ruling strata have ceased to believe in the advantages and the value of the system, but lacked any other ideological coordinates within which to situate their thinking. https://braveneweurope.com/branko-milanovic-the-rule-of-nihilists https://braveneweurope.com/branko-milanovic-the-rule-of-nihi... My personal term to describe the players in Britain's politics is functional incompetence. Which is while they are adept at gaining and holding on to office, they are hapless at performing the actual duties of those offices.
  - cmsj 4y ago
    > functional incompetence Yep, our ruling class is educated to be quick witted in abstract debates and that is the extent of their depth.
mrtksn 4y ago
You know what else is bad for the wedges? Schools producing all those engineers undercutting the wedge growth of those already in the profession. With that logic, education is the primary enemy of the middle class. Seriously though, this demand to control the supply of labor is a strange one. Everybody is for meritocracy and free market until they are expected to perform. Working permits are like the taxi medallion system. If someone who speaks native English, went to British schools, have a network in the country thanks to living there since ever cannot compete with someone from, say Romania, it's only fair for the immigrant to take the job.
jon_adler 4y ago
How has Australian wages been harmed by considerably higher immigration?

sangnoir 4y ago

> It's the working and middle classes that are most harmed by immigration. Didn't farmers complain that British (working class?)citizens[1] weren't up for picking fruits after East Europeans hit the Brexit? The same working & middle class rely on cheap fruits, so it's not a simple equation where fewer immigrants = better jobs. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-61568286 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-61568286

thrown_22 4y ago
I'm not sure how to respond without being glib, but there's more to life than fruit. Safe working conditions are worth 5 pound strawberries.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Sure - there's more to life than fruit, massages, receiving trucked goods, and being attended to by health techs - but add it all up and you're missing quite a huge chunk of "life", IMO.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    If a system depends on disposable workers to provide those things than it's not a system we should be supporting. We need to figure out how to provide a wage large enough to provide for everyone, not just the lucky few who have an army of slaves to meet their needs. Currently we don't and we are stealing the human capital of the second world to support our failing countries.
    - random314 4y ago
      The strawman is now a strawarmy!
- hnhg 4y ago
  Why do you assume they're unsafe? That's not in the article. It appears you've created a strawman.
wewxjfq 4y ago
Or you could try to stop the race to the bottom and pay the working class more so they can afford strawberries that aren't picked by wage slaves.
Gollapalli 4y ago
There's a difference between a complaint and a reality. British working class citizens likely wouldn't wish to pick fruits, at the wages that British farmers wish to pay them. Actually, that's sort of the point. British working class labour being undercut by foreign labour.
- emsixteen 4y ago
  "Undercut"? You're getting there.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > Actually, that's sort of the point. British working class labour being undercut by foreign labour. Sure, that may work in a purely hypothetical construct with rational economic agents, no second-order effects, farmers that are OK with going out of business, no political pandering, a the Conservative government that cares about labor (the class) and spherical cows. Why are the anti-immigration politicians, now that they have "taken back control" - still keeping the immigration pipeline running? Just with fewer EU immigrants. Blaming foreign laborers for systemic problems is a lazy cop-out: that is the bloc with the least say.

closeparen 4y ago

No, it's not, this is called the lump of labor fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

olivermarks 4y ago
Tragedy of the commons (or in this case mass immigration to the 'commons') https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/tragedy-of-the-commons-impact-on-sustainability-issues https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/tragedy-of-the-commons-impa... example 5
- closeparen 4y ago
  Wages do not work like groundwater. There is no fixed exogenous workload or pool of national income such that fewer people get bigger shares. This was cutting edge thinking at the time of the Industrial Revolution but it turned out to be totally wrong. Obviously, or standards of living in Western countries today would be much worse than in Malthusianism's heyday, given our now much higher populations.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    Disagree. UK socialists last century when the country was still a manufacturing powerhouse were clear about the concept of a nation state with nationalized health, energy, travel etc, union membership and fair taxation for A FINITE NUMBER OF CITIZENS. Fraternal relationships with similar nation states (all singing the nationale together) was arguably one of the reasons for the creation of the common market (which of course mushroomed over time into the huge undemocratic bureaucratic monster it now is). Naturally those benefits (literally in some cases) were very attractive to people like Mo Farah's family from afar decades ago and the UK and Europe were empathetic to allowing some immigration. The tragedy of the commons is epitomized by globalization, the vast offshore empire that now controls the planet. The globalists want compliant, overpopulated workforces with no negotiating skills in all countries and thus encouraging borderless society. The result is mediocre wages, large amounts of trafficking of in some cases literally slave labour and few opportunities for what used to be termed the working classes. These are huge global problems that are currently spinning out of control due to the globalists also controlling the central banks which have enabled finacialization of everything and now ferocious inflation

nly 4y ago

Real UK wages are stagnant because the UK has a desperately unproductive economy. Growth in disposable household income has lagged Europe massively for decades. We also have the highest tax burden as a % of GDP in 70 years. House prices are the highest relative to income than they have ever been. We're a country circling the drain. Blaming immigration and the EU in political discourse just suits the political agenda of our clueless, ambivalent politicians who haven't got the vision or balls to radically change anything for the better. Instead they'll just pick over what benefits they will cut and what taxes they will cut/increase and run in circles.

Gibbon1 4y ago
Your comment makes me think of this essay by Branko Milanovic Particularly this line: Xi sees the break-up of the Soviet Union and the end of the CPSU as the result of “ideological nihilism”: the ruling strata have ceased to believe in the advantages and the value of the system, but lacked any other ideological coordinates within which to situate their thinking. https://braveneweurope.com/branko-milanovic-the-rule-of-nihilists https://braveneweurope.com/branko-milanovic-the-rule-of-nihi... My personal term to describe the players in Britain's politics is functional incompetence. Which is while they are adept at gaining and holding on to office, they are hapless at performing the actual duties of those offices.
- cmsj 4y ago
  > functional incompetence Yep, our ruling class is educated to be quick witted in abstract debates and that is the extent of their depth.

mrtksn 4y ago

You know what else is bad for the wedges? Schools producing all those engineers undercutting the wedge growth of those already in the profession. With that logic, education is the primary enemy of the middle class. Seriously though, this demand to control the supply of labor is a strange one. Everybody is for meritocracy and free market until they are expected to perform. Working permits are like the taxi medallion system. If someone who speaks native English, went to British schools, have a network in the country thanks to living there since ever cannot compete with someone from, say Romania, it's only fair for the immigrant to take the job.

jon_adler 4y ago

How has Australian wages been harmed by considerably higher immigration?