8 ms·

I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the

by xupybd 4y ago

I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.

MerelyMortal 4y ago
As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.
- snypher 4y ago
  Let me introduce you to our good 'friend' Control Module.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    *friends, my 435i has something like 30 ECUs But people still do find defeats for most of those. The reality is BMW doesn't care because the average person won't bother with any of that and will just pay.
    - _zzaw 4y ago
      I'm not sure the average person drives a BMW. I don't know, maybe if you can afford to drive a BMW, you don't mind having to rent something you already bought. I have a feeling that if Honda or Toyota pulled this shit, nobody would buy the models that had it. Renting things like heated seats? It feels bizarre to even have to discuss such a dystopically stupid idea.
      - BoorishBears 4y ago
        Where to begin... First off, saying "the average person would do X" is a hypothetical. It doesn't mean they're in that situation: "If given choice between modifying car and paying money, will pay money" Second, the article is about BMW, so even if you missed that it'd still be pretty easy to infer an average person amongst their customers... Third, what's with the weird dig against people for owning BMWs. Different people can want different things... and there's a reason Toyota's halo sports car is rolling around with a BMW powerplant. Fourth, Toyota started this is 5 years ago by paywalling remote start not just with the app, but with your normal physical key fob: https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-entune-and-toyotas-connected-services https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-ent... They even doubled down and removed the physical button on newer models!: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digital-pay-subscription/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digit...
      - sumtechguy 4y ago
        It is a silly idea 100%. However, I think BMW knows its customer here. I like to chat up the repair people sometimes. The one conversations that stuck with me for years after bringing in my older BMW. "oh wow have not seen one of these in awhile" (it was 8 years old at that point). "huh, what do you mean?" "oh most of what we deal with in here is lease". A lease is pretty much subscribing to a car service with terrible financial terms. There are plenty of people out there that make decent money but are bad at managing it.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        well, terrible is a relative term, maybe they make so much they don't care. Everyone buying iPhone knows it's not a financially optimal decision
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Is the control module built into the heating pads themselves?
    - anakaine 4y ago
      I fail to see how it matters, really. Heating is generally pretty straight forward. Apply current, get heat. Bypass the module altogether and stick something else in its place?
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  I had a BMW i3 2017. Last year one of the front turn signal lights broke. So I went to the shop to ask for a replacement bulb. There I learned you can't just replace the bulb, no. The whole light module had to be replaced, $350 + work. These things are getting ridiculously integrated. Wouldn't surprise me if the seat heaters had some integrated temperature controller unit just because.
- nabilhat 4y ago
  Absolutely, seat warmers are typically nothing more than a resistive grid under the fabric. A quick check for how power's supplied in case there's a requirement for current control, and wire in a physical switch. Unless there's something snuck in that throws codes if the seat heater does something unexpected - wouldn't that be something, DRM for Bimmer bun warmers. In which case if it's not possible to fool the system by wiring in a resistor instead, then it's a car to avoid as seat warmers are rather prone to broken traces over time from occupants bouncing and shuffling around on the seats, which could render the car unregisterable in regions that check OBD codes.
foepys 4y ago
> Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product. Why? Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that? One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.
- xupybd 4y ago
  Because you're getting a good deal out of it. They're managing the hardware it runs on. Keeping the software up to date. The customer gets a good deal. We have office 365. Users self manage. They can download and install on devices as they want. Before office 365 I had to install it for them. It's a big win for our business. We have no dedicated I.T. people. I'm a developer that does a little here and there but we work to avoid anything with I.T. costs. SASS is a brilliant solution to our problem. Yeah I'll pay a subscription for an on going service. I won't pay a subscription for enabling a feature I then have to maintain. If the seat heater fails, I have to pay to fix it.
  - ratg13 4y ago
    You make a very good point, but makes me wonder if they were fully responsible for maintaining the seats as part of the contract, would that then make this acceptable?
    - xupybd 4y ago
      Yeah I think so. Mechanical insurance is the equivalent.
- sanjayio 4y ago
  Because for the heated seats there are no server fees, maintenance costs, firmware updates, patches, future features under development, product teams thinking about lifecycle, the list goes on. The same can’t be said for AI in Teslas or Whoop straps which can justify the cost / subscription.
deng 4y ago
> I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.
- Reubachi 4y ago
  It is common in industry that use SAAS, modular systems, etc. Not with purely physical goods. I'm surprised practices like these have legal legs. No reasonable finance statement/legal statement will stand behind a $3.5k line item under manufacturing for a robot to flip a switch to enable a software setting on already installed hardware. Example w/ non-real numbers: BMW x5 with front facing radar, dealer enabled, cost of goods sold = $31,000. MSRP = $60k. BMW x5 with front facing radar installed, dealer disabled, cogs =$31,000.MSRP= $56.5k. This is not healthy for a company to rely on.
jrochkind1 4y ago
> "Unauthorized Bread"—a tale of jailbreaking refugees versus IoT appliances—is the lead novella in author Cory Doctorow's Radicalized https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

by xupybd 4y ago

MerelyMortal 4y ago

As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.

snypher 4y ago
Let me introduce you to our good 'friend' Control Module.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  *friends, my 435i has something like 30 ECUs But people still do find defeats for most of those. The reality is BMW doesn't care because the average person won't bother with any of that and will just pay.
  - _zzaw 4y ago
    I'm not sure the average person drives a BMW. I don't know, maybe if you can afford to drive a BMW, you don't mind having to rent something you already bought. I have a feeling that if Honda or Toyota pulled this shit, nobody would buy the models that had it. Renting things like heated seats? It feels bizarre to even have to discuss such a dystopically stupid idea.
    - BoorishBears 4y ago
      Where to begin... First off, saying "the average person would do X" is a hypothetical. It doesn't mean they're in that situation: "If given choice between modifying car and paying money, will pay money" Second, the article is about BMW, so even if you missed that it'd still be pretty easy to infer an average person amongst their customers... Third, what's with the weird dig against people for owning BMWs. Different people can want different things... and there's a reason Toyota's halo sports car is rolling around with a BMW powerplant. Fourth, Toyota started this is 5 years ago by paywalling remote start not just with the app, but with your normal physical key fob: https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-entune-and-toyotas-connected-services https://ktvo.com/news/auto-matters/costs-associated-with-ent... They even doubled down and removed the physical button on newer models!: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digital-pay-subscription/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-remote-start-digit...
    - sumtechguy 4y ago
      It is a silly idea 100%. However, I think BMW knows its customer here. I like to chat up the repair people sometimes. The one conversations that stuck with me for years after bringing in my older BMW. "oh wow have not seen one of these in awhile" (it was 8 years old at that point). "huh, what do you mean?" "oh most of what we deal with in here is lease". A lease is pretty much subscribing to a car service with terrible financial terms. There are plenty of people out there that make decent money but are bad at managing it.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        well, terrible is a relative term, maybe they make so much they don't care. Everyone buying iPhone knows it's not a financially optimal decision
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  Is the control module built into the heating pads themselves?
  - anakaine 4y ago
    I fail to see how it matters, really. Heating is generally pretty straight forward. Apply current, get heat. Bypass the module altogether and stick something else in its place?
magicalhippo 4y ago
I had a BMW i3 2017. Last year one of the front turn signal lights broke. So I went to the shop to ask for a replacement bulb. There I learned you can't just replace the bulb, no. The whole light module had to be replaced, $350 + work. These things are getting ridiculously integrated. Wouldn't surprise me if the seat heaters had some integrated temperature controller unit just because.
nabilhat 4y ago
Absolutely, seat warmers are typically nothing more than a resistive grid under the fabric. A quick check for how power's supplied in case there's a requirement for current control, and wire in a physical switch. Unless there's something snuck in that throws codes if the seat heater does something unexpected - wouldn't that be something, DRM for Bimmer bun warmers. In which case if it's not possible to fool the system by wiring in a resistor instead, then it's a car to avoid as seat warmers are rather prone to broken traces over time from occupants bouncing and shuffling around on the seats, which could render the car unregisterable in regions that check OBD codes.

foepys 4y ago

> Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product. Why? Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that? One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.

xupybd 4y ago
Because you're getting a good deal out of it. They're managing the hardware it runs on. Keeping the software up to date. The customer gets a good deal. We have office 365. Users self manage. They can download and install on devices as they want. Before office 365 I had to install it for them. It's a big win for our business. We have no dedicated I.T. people. I'm a developer that does a little here and there but we work to avoid anything with I.T. costs. SASS is a brilliant solution to our problem. Yeah I'll pay a subscription for an on going service. I won't pay a subscription for enabling a feature I then have to maintain. If the seat heater fails, I have to pay to fix it.
- ratg13 4y ago
  You make a very good point, but makes me wonder if they were fully responsible for maintaining the seats as part of the contract, would that then make this acceptable?
  - xupybd 4y ago
    Yeah I think so. Mechanical insurance is the equivalent.
sanjayio 4y ago
Because for the heated seats there are no server fees, maintenance costs, firmware updates, patches, future features under development, product teams thinking about lifecycle, the list goes on. The same can’t be said for AI in Teslas or Whoop straps which can justify the cost / subscription.

deng 4y ago

> I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car. This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.

Reubachi 4y ago
It is common in industry that use SAAS, modular systems, etc. Not with purely physical goods. I'm surprised practices like these have legal legs. No reasonable finance statement/legal statement will stand behind a $3.5k line item under manufacturing for a robot to flip a switch to enable a software setting on already installed hardware. Example w/ non-real numbers: BMW x5 with front facing radar, dealer enabled, cost of goods sold = $31,000. MSRP = $60k. BMW x5 with front facing radar installed, dealer disabled, cogs =$31,000.MSRP= $56.5k. This is not healthy for a company to rely on.

jrochkind1 4y ago

> "Unauthorized Bread"—a tale of jailbreaking refugees versus IoT appliances—is the lead novella in author Cory Doctorow's Radicalized https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...